Viability of S16 instead of 2/3rd's?

[Peter Moretti]

I hate to bring this up, b/c I want the fixed Scarlet locked down and release already.

However, the AF100 is going to be a force to be reckoned with w/ its larger sensor.

Is there any viability to releasing the fixed Scarlet w/ an S16 sized chip instead of 2/3rds?

I believe 2/3rd's was chosen partly so lenses like DigiPrimes can be used. I don't know if B4 lenses' image circle can cover an S16 sensor.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

All we would have to do is wait through another design and test cycle. Why would we want to do that when the specs of the Scarlet when it is released will still blow away all cameras in even a remotely similar price range? When the AF-100 shoots RAW, not to mention 3K and HDRx™, then maybe it will start to compete with the Scarlet.

 

[David Rasberry]

I hate to bring this up, b/c I want the fixed Scarlet locked down and release already.

However, the AF100 is going to be a force to be reckoned with w/ its larger sensor.

Is there any viability to releasing the fixed Scarlet w/ an S16 sized chip instead of 2/3rds?

I believe 2/3rd's was chosen partly so lenses like DigiPrimes can be used. I don't know if B4 lenses' image circle can cover an S16 sensor.

Would you choose an 8-bit AVCHD camera over a 12 bit raw camera with twice the resolution, twice the frame rates, and nearly twice the dynamic range just for a 1-1/2 stop difference in DOF capability? I wouldn't. Scarlet will compete quite well as is.

 

[Sam Eilertsen]

Not going to happen. The sensor has been nailed down for quite a while now (it was probably the first thing they developed). There is no way they are going back to the drawing board to add a few millimeters.

 

[Yuval Shrem]

If you want shallower depth of field, the size difference between these two sensors is not going to make such a big difference. The sensor size is only one of a few factors to determine the depth of field. The difference between s35 and 2/3" as well as the difference between 2/3" and 1/3", are very noticeable, however, the difference you're referring to is not such a big deal. I actually see an advantage to the 2/3" sensor for 3D work.
I've also had a lot of luck creating very pleasing shallow depth of field with 2/3" cameras, sometimes more so than with s16.

 

[Subhadip Sen]

I hope there's a S16 upgrade to the Scarlet for the Monstro generation. Much like EPIC FF35 : EPIC S35, Scarlet S16 : Scarlet 2/3".

Edit - Just to clarify, a S16 sized sensor with M-X technology seems like a waste of time.

 

[Sean Finnegan]

Would you choose an 8-bit AVCHD camera over a 12 bit raw camera with twice the resolution, twice the frame rates, and nearly twice the dynamic range just for a 1-1/2 stop difference in DOF capability? I wouldn't. Scarlet will compete quite well as is.

This.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

Why is there so much interest in jumping from a 10mm-wide sensor to a 12mm-wide sensor? Seems like hair-splitting in terms of an improvement.

 

[David Rasberry]

Why is there so much interest in jumping from a 10mm-wide sensor to a 12mm-wide sensor? Seems like hair-splitting in terms of an improvement.

True. But Red could squeeze quad HD resolution into an S-16 sensor at the same pixel pitch as the 2/3" Scarlet. It would likely be significantly more expensive a camera though.

 

[Joseph Ward]

Why is there so much interest in jumping from a 10mm-wide sensor to a 12mm-wide sensor? Seems like hair-splitting in terms of an improvement.

Maybe because Red's cameras are known for cinema? Even though RedOne sensor wasn't true S35...

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Maybe because Red's cameras are known for cinema? Even though RedOne sensor wasn't true S35...

I think David is suggesting there isn't much of a difference between 10 and 12 mm width as far as DOF (or much else) goes, cinematically speaking. As for the RED ONE's original M sensor, it was very close to S35 film, as seen in the chart on this page...

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=23192&page=8

 

[David Mullen ASC]

Sure, if they were starting from the ground-up today and had a choice between making a 3K 2/3" sensor and a 3.8K (quad HD) Super-16 sensor, I'd probably recommend the 3.8K sensor... but I'm sure one of their reasons for a 2/3" sensor was to accommodate all of those B4 video zoom lenses out there that might vignette at the wide-angle end. Or maybe not. That and perhaps they already had a line on a 2/3" sensor maker, I don't know. Either way, the camera is near-finished now and I personally don't want to wait for another two years just to get a slightly larger sensor in there.

 

[Erich Roland]

16mm lenses

16mm lenses

Hopefully we will be able to adapt out to 16mm lenses withe the Scarlet 2/3". Sure there are lots b4 mount 2/3" lenses available and they should work well, but also many great 16mm lenses gathering dust with more cinema type qualities that the video world cared less about. longer throws for focus, dampened zoom mechanisms ready for micro force motors, etc. Cooke, Zeiss, and re-worked Canon's... many great lenses waiting to work again!

 

[Michael Lindsay]

Why is there so much interest in jumping from a 10mm-wide sensor to a 12mm-wide sensor? Seems like hair-splitting in terms of an improvement.

I'm with you, in that I just would like to see the camera come out asap!

But 8.80 to 12.52mm is a fairly significant fov difference at the wide end (I'm not 100% but I think these are the relevant figures) and it is my understanding that S16 glass works without a horrible optical anti prism fudge (and B4 glass dosn't??). So if there was going to be a Mrk2 scarlet then I'm with the S16 chip size guys.

regards

Michael L

 

[Terry VerHaar]

...
But 8.80 to 12.52mm is a fairly significant fov difference at the wide end ...

...

I don't understand what you are referring to here. The Scarlet 2/3" sensor is listed by RED as 10.35 mm wide (as implied in David's original comment).

 

[Sean Finnegan]

I don't understand what you are referring to here. The Scarlet 2/3" sensor is listed by RED as 10.35 mm wide (as implied in David's original comment).

He's talking about the field of view difference between Scarlet 2/3" vs. S16 at the same focal length.

 

[Jesper Sichlau]

Sure, if they were starting from the ground-up today and had a choice between making a 3K 2/3" sensor and a 3.8K (quad HD) Super-16 sensor, I'd probably recommend the 3.8K sensor... but I'm sure one of their reasons for a 2/3" sensor was to accommodate all of those B4 video zoom lenses out there that might vignette at the wide-angle end. Or maybe not. That and perhaps they already had a line on a 2/3" sensor maker, I don't know. Either way, the camera is near-finished now and I personally don't want to wait for another two years just to get a slightly larger sensor in there.

BTW David, if it's not too personal, may I ask what camera you are going to buy?

 

[Michael Lindsay]

I don't understand what you are referring to here. The Scarlet 2/3" sensor is listed by RED as 10.35 mm wide (as implied in David's original comment).

I'm really not 100%, as I said, but surely there is the active chip area (including look-around) and what will actually record? I would be interested to know the exact figures for the recording area... 10.35mm horizontal recording areas isn't the 2/3 inch size but it would be great if that was the recording area.

Michael

PS slight disclamer is that I want to get the most out of a couple of sets of Ultra16 lenses

 

[David Rasberry]

Here is a sketch of active recording dimensions based on the last announced pixel pitch for Scarlet.

http://reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=555626&postcount=88

 

[David Rasberry]

Hopefully we will be able to adapt out to 16mm lenses withe the Scarlet 2/3". Sure there are lots b4 mount 2/3" lenses available and they should work well, but also many great 16mm lenses gathering dust with more cinema type qualities that the video world cared less about. longer throws for focus, dampened zoom mechanisms ready for micro force motors, etc. Cooke, Zeiss, and re-worked Canon's... many great lenses waiting to work again!

Standard 16mm lenses will work quite well. Super 16mm lenses might be preferred for newer optical designs and coatings. I have assembled a decent collection of vintage 16mm glass I am looking forward to playing with myself.