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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Vegas 9 and RED

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Nicholas Costaras

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Hi

I just tested out the new Vegas 9 with RED. You can literally edit in 4K...if your machine can handle it. You can also drop the .R3D file onto the timeline. What's also great is that instead of using proxy files you can just set your vegas project into a smaller more managable project 720p and get a smoother play back. So no more proxy files....yay. You can place a colour effect on the timeline clip or any pluggin and still manipulate the RAW file values and see the results immediately. Quite an impressive workflow if you ask me. Now...the bad so far...I'm sure there'll be more as I start to play with it properly. The default colour is more "purply" than the original .R3D. I actually called up the file from RedCine and Vegas and the results are drastically different. One awesome thing though is that if you are editing a 2K project you can crop the original 4k on the timeline. No painful import export. So in terms of workflow...this would be incredible to be able to manipulate any size RED file on anytimeline and access the RAW data and then still adjusting the RAW data while checking it directly on your time line with all the your added effects on.

The beauty about the 4K option is that you actually have a 4k option. You could literally set your project to 720. Edit the whole thing and when your ready change it to 4K and push out the project as needed. Vegas also cleverly handles any file size on any time line. i.e. 4K on DV pal. The crap thing about Vegas unfortunalty is that is struggles to downscale...If you take a HDV project and render it out to a smaller resolution it really comes out squashes small squares out instead of good clean FCP quality...it seems a little dodge. Like I said early days yet...Firstly if I could figure out how to get the colour exact...or maybe they could even release a patch. Anyways, I could post some screen shots so you can see what i talking about, but that is also to assume that anyone would care to use Vegas. I use FCP and Vegas and honestly prefer the speed of vegas literally 4 times faster to edit that FCP but like the quality of image that FCP delivers...so this is my journey.
 
I agree about the colors of my R3D files in Vegas 9, it doesn't look the way I expect- sort of a harsh look. I assumed it was just my files.
 
one word shoots vegas in the head for me: windows.

i'll never go back. can't stomach the bill gates fisher price toy set anymore.

EDIT: i'm sorry. i don't want to start (or have) "the debate" between mac and PC. my point is that i used vegas for many years and loved it, but windows just kept rearing it's head. windows clicks fine with some people!!
 
Nicholas Costaras said:
I use FCP and Vegas and honestly prefer the speed of vegas literally 4 times faster to edit that FCP but like the quality of image that FCP delivers...so this is my journey.
Click to expand...

Hi Nicholas:

I am really curious about Vegas but how can you edit "literally" 4 times faster in Vegas than FCP? Could you elaborate?

-michael zaletel
(shooter)
 
I think he is referring to editing speed and not actual render speed or playback framerates Shooter. He might be referring to the ability to copy onto your HDDs, drag and drop on the timeline, use the metadata or not, use any project settings with any resolution clips, and the ability to change your mind at any given moment. I am guessing that is what he meant because he touched on the fact that you can work at any resolution you feel like or that your rig can handle in RT and later hit a button and finish at 4k with no effects on any of the work you put into the timeline.

I am a little worried about what you are saying about the color Nicholas and Jbeale, I quess that should be fixable though... I hope you are sending the request to their support team, and hopefully a link to this thread in case they want to listen!
 
Yip...I'm talking about the editing speed. You can edit while the timeline plays...a good example would be as you are viewing an edit and you notice the fade was too fast you just adjust it on the fly while the timeline is still playing, and that applies to any effect, event etc...you can even move the clip while it's playing. That's the power of vegas...i hate having to stop change then press play again. You can even play your timeline and your trimmer simultaneously which is kinda gives you an idea of how flexible it is. It's the quality of the image I need to test now. I'm also running bootcamp so I prefer to use the right tool for the job, if it's Vegas or FCP. It's really about the tool and it's effectiveness for the job needed and not the operating system.

The difference in pics can be found here...
http://www.switchvert.com/vegas/Vegas-Output.jpg

The curve adjustment of the RAW data is also not visual just x and y values. So it you can't adjust the x and y on a curve like in RED alert.. you need to do it seperately. Quite tricky.
 
I have to agree..
Vegas for OSX, And I'll be the happiest camper around!

Gary Stone said:
one word shoots vegas in the head for me: windows.

i'll never go back. can't stomach the bill gates fisher price toy set anymore.

EDIT: i'm sorry. i don't want to start (or have) "the debate" between mac and PC. my point is that i used vegas for many years and loved it, but windows just kept rearing it's head. windows clicks fine with some people!!
Click to expand...
 
Nicholas Costaras said:
The difference in pics can be found here...
http://www.switchvert.com/vegas/Vegas-Output.jpg

The curve adjustment of the RAW data is also not visual just x and y values. So it you can't adjust the x and y on a curve like in RED alert.. you need to do it seperately. Quite tricky.
Click to expand...

Oh, my... it really hurts to see that. I wonder if they could fix it... if they will?

I agree that not having an actual curve is also an other negative. I am not sure why they would have to do it that way but it is really weird.
 
I haven't had time to play with it much yet, but my guess about the strange colors on R3D files in Vegas is that there is some confusion about the interpretation of color spaces and gamma values between what the Red SDK puts out (I assuming they're using the SDK), and what Vegas is actually showing you.
 
Check your color/bit depth settings in the project settings. I changed to 32-bit float, full-range, and the colors look much closer to what I thought they should be. Purely subjective, but keep it in mind when doing your own comparisons.
 
I sent in a support ticket about the colors, crashing during metadata adjust (32bit version) & no realtime feedback of metadata changes in 64bit version. I was promptly replied to:

Thank you for contacting Sony Creative Software. This functionality has already been identified by our development team as a bug and we are working to correct this functionality for a future release of the Vegas Pro 9.0 software. A possible work around that has been suggested is to:

Load your .r3d file to the timeline, enable a loop region around the file.

Playback the file in the timeline and allow it to loop. While the file is looping, make the adjustments to the metadata settings.

This workaround has helped in some cases, but not all.
Click to expand...
 
R3D colors in Vegas 9

R3D colors in Vegas 9

I used color temp. and tint to get the greyscale patches right but the rest of the colorchecker is not a good match to proper colors.
EDIT: Wow, using 32-bit full mode, it certainly looks different- colors much less saturated, and probably more accurate. My first try with the saturated, super-yellow version was the 8-bit default mode.

UPDATE: getting closer with these settings:
Color temp: 6200 (note: color temp. of actual light was 5150 K)
Tint: +8.0
Saturation: 1.50
Contrast: 0.35
Gamma curve: Rec. 709
Color Space: Camera RGB
ISO: 320
Vegas Project: 32-bit, full range

Vegas 9 file attached in ZIP format. The original R3D is here (small enough to download easily):
http://www.bealecorner.org/red/test-080108/R3D/2k-ChartA-T8-1-14.R3D
 
Red correction on the timeline....

Red correction on the timeline....

Ok..I'm nervous about changing the actual RED Metadata all the time as the problem lies in trying to edit huge amounts of files...to adjust each one would be crazy. So I have created a timeline to help so you can drag and drop your RED file onto that timeline and get better results immediately. I used the scopes and waveforms of each individual colour. The blue is what seems to be most off. Secondly the colours also seem to run wild in the high range. This is a quick fix but the image still seems to be digital and I can't seems to get rid of enough greens. The softness of the image is better but still "crap".

i adjusted each level seperately as you will see there are 3 levels and then i had to use colour correction to manage the offset gamma and saturation. Like I said, I'm still not happy with the results but this is a better result.

Please feel free to tweak and change and send me updates too....
 

Attachments

I'm curious what system specs you guys are using who are editing 4K in realtime.

The system requirements for Vegas 9 are a 1ghz proc and 1gb RAM. My system easily doubles that and on Vegas 6, I can't even edit SD in realtime with limited effects applied.

Has the backend changed that much??
 
No one is editing real-time full 4k. That won't happen 'til Red Rocket. Most are editing a 4k project using a 1k preview on either "preview" or "good" quality (which I find no difference). 1k at preview or higher quality is easily sharp enough to see focus issues etc., at least it is for me. Draft quality is very soft but allows realtime playback no matter what's going on.

On a casino commercial I just finished up, I had a shot with two tracks of r3d (one was a matte) along with 3 high rez .psd's & an SD quicktime layered on top of each other and was able to view real-time in "preview" without final coloring effects applied. With coloring (AAV, CC, Soft Contrast), it was near real time.
 
OK.. after much editing. These are the issues and cool perks.

Firstly there is a bug while changing the metadata while you are using 2 screens. I hear sony is working on it but if you're not seeing your picture change and Vegas seems to crash then here is the solution for now. Press alt+d and d again. it sets up a 1 screen colour correction layout. You can change the metadata without Vegas crashing...when done press alt+d and 0(or whatever screenlayout you had prior).

Since Vegas does interpret the metadata very differently to redcine you'll find the blue is over compensated so by pulling down your blue gain in metadata will give you a similar feel, but treat it as a whole new grade instead. Forget about your redcine results and start from scratch.

Unfortunately you cannot copy and paste metadata so this is a killer....get a pen a notebook ready for duplicated gradings within metadata. Old school!

Magic bullet seems to cripple itself using the GPU function on a Red File. You might get ungarbled renders with it off.

Rendering always runs out of memory unless you make your dynamic preview RAM 0. And use less CPU cores....Drives me crazy. I'm only editing 10min segments and would love to see how it handles a full length doci. (Running MacPro on XP with 4 gigs ram)

Cropping... Hallelujah...makes the whole work around worth it. Awesome to have. There is a bug here...if you are playing back while editing your crop vegas will crash...it crashes if you add an effect on a clip during playback too.

ISO...The flexibility in Vegas is better than RED Cine...It lets you go as low a 50...and has more intervals than Redcine allows so therefore more fexibility.

Export image sequence in Vegas 9. Now you can render and image sequence from the render menu...about bloody time. Helps with moving projects into FCP. You just need to render the audio out seperately.

The results after much experimentation are ...FABULOUS!!! The colour can look quite sexy. We shot some 120 frames p/s of a Ford in Nevada and it looks like a Tony Scott clip if you overcrank it (Reversal Stock). I'll see if I can get a chance to post it.

Like I said before this is what works for me so if there is a better way please share it.
 
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