User-friendly options for TV Field Production

[Jim Grieco]

I realize that the people at RED and many of the members who post on this site feel that RED camera systems should be designed exclusively for cinema production. I hope thatTed @ Red and his design team will take into consideration the huge market of TV D.P.'s such as myself, who have a need for high-end production for network television.

Now...I'm NOT talking about reality TV or News...there are plenty of other cameras designed for that style...and I am not suggesting that RED should venture into that market, however, along with primetime drama's there are other TV markets for RED such as...nature shows...show opens...teases...profiles, etc...For example, I shoot mainly sports profiles for television and I'll often find myself at a live event shooting specialty shots of the featured players. I own the EPIC and I LOVE the camera! The images are fantastic, but there are a few things that have been ignored that make it difficult for a guy like me to get my shots.

For example, there is no ND filter wheel. When I'm out in the field shooting hand held, I go in and out of different light sources and I often have to spin in an ND filter to adjust for the changing light levels. With my EPIC I have to stop shooting and load a filter instead, which slows everything down...and sometimes it's just impossible for me to stop. Here's another case...when I'm shooting specialty shots of a player at a live event, my clients want sound when I'm not shooting high speed, but many times they can only get one press pass and I have to record usable nat sound via a camera mic. I own the EPIC and I have the W....nCam... A-Box, so I rig a Sennheiser ME66 on top of the rig and plug it in via the A-Box. As you all probably know, there is no "auto ride" on EPIC, so I set a general level and just go with it. As you would expect...when the crowd roars, sometimes the audio gets so over-modulated it starts to break up...and if I set the general level for the crowd roaring...everything else is recorded low. RED should consider designing an "auto ride" feature for the next firmare release.

The final and most important item is onboard creation of high quality 1080p DNxHD or ProRes files. I've checked out the Hyperdeck (I own the PIX 240), and I know the new Meizler Module is about to come out...but the Miezler Module is a lot of extra bucks, and I don't need all those other features that the Cinema guys want. RED should design a small, lightwieght module that can record high quality HD files (that offers several mb/sec options) on a separate SSD which docks with the EPIC.. I currently use the PIX 240, but it's a lot of extra weight for hand held shooting, so I have a PA follow me around with it. I have to create HD files for my clients as I shoot because most of them finish with 1080p HD files and they don't want to pay extra $$$ to have a DIT transcode the R3D's on-site.

Trust me RED...a small, lightwieght module that can record high quality HD files on a separate SSD would sell like hot cakes. Even the cinema guys would want it for instant dailies! There are a lot of owner/operater TV D.P's like me that would love to buy and use RED camera systems if RED would just make them a little more user friendly for TV field production. Anyone out there agree with me on this? If so...post a reply and let's make our voices known!

 

[stu aull]

Hi Jim-
Scarlet-op in same field, so feel the Pain too. Certainly continues to be a big Re-Learn for me (going into 2nd yr) after 20yrs of betacam shooting. No doubt Sony jammed us up at their Price of Entry, but, damn, they had the field-work-flow down!
As-is (a loaded statement maybe considering the zillion-ways these little leaf-blowers can be configured!) these are not cut out for doco/EFP shooting - at least as an Old-Schooler like me understood the rulez of that game. Maybe for all the Lads coming up from making DSLRs work as motion-cameras have a more...enlightened?...perspective.
I wasn't kidding myself when I jumped into the Deep End (OK, Scarlet: more like middle of the pool...) with RED. I knew (after trolling this Forum for over a year before dropping the Dime) that there was going to be some compromise to using a cube of alloy that delivered breath-taking images at 1/3 or less of the price of a full-on "conventional" shoulder-mount HD-only EFP camera (tho even that price-spread shrunk once I started adding all the bits on).

Fact is Jim, we (the EFP guys) are not the target-audience. The 4-K cine-boys are. (I am running a PIX240 too). If any user-friendliness is going to come about, its going to be btw the OP and whatever aftermarket craftsmen can cobble/customize/adapt to make them work for us.

OR:

RED will announce its EFP -spec Box in about 3 weeks
!
(I joke)

Meanwhile I will stick with my PIX and keep slapping filters on/off as needed and hope the circumstance allows the time...


Stu Aull
SX199
Alaska

 

[Christopher Mills]

I have a hybrid past.. cine style production, and then moving into the interview/efp field by doing camera work and production on behind the scenes segments on features and tv.
That market was owned by HDCAM until a couple years ago, when it transitioned more into xdcam... which lowered the rental allowance on cameras by a LOT. (was $1200/day for camera and zoom in 2006, now $300-$450/day)

While I have a few clients who actually own recent enough versions of FCP or PP to use R3Ds, you would be shocked at which distributors/network vendors/cable content providers can not actually afford to do a render or a color correct of their project before delivery.

Secondarily, the lack of a low priced ENG lens for our s35 sensor cameras is a problem. There are many EFP companies who demand a servo zoom and parfocal zooming in the shots for their programming.

a DSLR lens is not the solution for this. They do not hold focus well enough for the only shots you get an opportunity to take in this field. I imagine sports shooters have the same issue.

As it is very complex engineering to make a lens fold focus through such a motorized zoom move, it is insanely expensive to sell such a lens.

I *do* have a few clients who are onboard with the prime lens style of shooting with a super 35 sensor camera, and a few more of them are finally going to accept R3Ds this year. Until they do, I provide Prores and avid DNX files, via a Ki pro mini. I do find the system has its own quirks, and have had to still do some transcoding when the media filled up on the ki pro, and the subject kept talking...

 

[Jim Grieco]

Hey Stu & Christopher...Just got back online and read your replies. It's beyond refreshing to hear someone else on this site speaking my language! I totally relate to both your comments...I spent $55,000 on my Ikegami V55 Betacam 15 years ago!...WITHOUT GLASS!

I don't know if RED realizes that there are a lot of TV guys like us that have the coin to spend on a kick-ass EFP camera that actually looks like a film rig. Like I said in my post, I can totally groove on the fact that RED wants to stay excusive to the cinema market, but do they honestly believe that these movie guys are going to suddenly run for cover if RED decided to release a soulder mount style 5k RAW Super 35mm rig with an ND filter wheel, a 1080HD SSD writer and a auto ride function for the audio? That's my dream camera...The RED ROVER.

Anyway, I knew the limitations when I went with EPIC, but I decieded to go for it because the 5k sensor is so off the hook. Even with the down-convert to 1080p...the footage still looks crazy good. Remember back in the day when we would shoot film for high-end TV pieces and have the client do a telecine...now I give it to them right in the field! It's just a shame that I have to use another manufacturers product to create the HD files. It would be a lot more streamline to have a unit made by RED that docked with EPIC.

As far as ENG lenses go Chris...I have the HDx35 B4/PL Optical Adapter which I purchased from Abel in NYC. I use my Canon 17x7.7 HD zoom and my Fujinon 13x4.5 with EPIC set in 4kHD and they both look great. The only down side is it knocks you down by 2 1/2 stops, which is a lot, but outside...it's way cool. Inside in low-light I bring up the ISO. EPIC is so clean with the ISO cranked up it doesn't even make that much of a difference. These PL mount zooms aren't as fast as our good old broadcast lenses to begin with...so you're really not losing that much anyway. I often crank up the gain on my SONY F-900 and on my Varicam when I'm inside anyway...and those 3CCD cameras are way grannier then EPIC when juiced up.

I shot some really great stuff for the Giants at MetLife Stadium in December with my EFP build on EPIC and it looks really slick. I'll try to whip together a clip reel from that shoot and get it posted next week so you can check it out. I have a 16mm Arri Ultra Prime and a set of Zeiss CP2's Primes (28mm,35mm, 50mm & 85mm) that I use for pretty much everything else that I shoot that's not hand-held. Anyone else out there care to chime in? Even if you are opposed to us TV guys using RED camera's for EFP...shout it out loud. I'm really interested in hearing all opinions on this!

 

[James McLellan]

+1 to internal ND filter, +1 to auto ride feature. Both would rock. Internal ND would super rock. I assume that would mean new PL/canon/nikon mounts. So be it. Many would buy them.

 

[Jim Grieco]

I would be the first in line.

 

[Christopher Mills]

good to know that the 17x7.7 canon looks good through the Abel adapter. I kept that lens when I sold my f900.
The adapter makes cost sense vs the Fuji Cabrio.. (50 days of rental to pay off vs 220)...
I only have worked one f900 job in the 18 months since I sold mine. Nothing else even asked for one...
across 30+ clients...
I have been more about figuring out what's a comfortable and usable rig for my current jobs.
How do you power the servo? D-tap to lens Servo module cable? WHo makes yours?

 

[Mike Garrick]

I'm sure a lot of REDs are used for film (read features) but IMO the greatest majority of REDs are used for TV, in all its various guises (with the exception of ENG)

The days of digi-betcams are over & don't miss their crappy 250K tiny sensors. Having said that the ergonomics of the betacam form many current camera's could benefit from.

Red's system of modularity has a lot to recommend but the weight starts creeping up with a modest of number accessories making it tough in the rough & tumble fast world of TV. The RED system has been designed to a 'feature film standard' even though I believe the bulk of their sales would be in TV. Given whats happening all things film maybe its time for re-think.

 

[Jim Grieco]

Christopher...I go manual zoom for all my hand-held shooting, so I don't need to use the servo. I'll bet you could have Abel make you an adapter cable. I may just look into that myself...it's rare that I need to do a servo zoom (I shoot all docu-style stuff with my zoom lens) but I may run into a situation where I need it...thanks for asking!

Mike...If you ask me, RED is crazy not to add a streamline,"shoulder mount" style rig to their line up. That "Gunner Rig" they sell for hand-held is a monstrosity. I built my own smaller, lighter verson for minimal dollars.

That's the one downside to all these Super 35mm rigs out there right now. Even the SONY F-3, 5 & 55 and the Canon CS300, C300 etc... They are just NOT designed for hand-held. Whichever manufacture wakes up and designs a hand-held friendly super 35mm sensor rig is going to blow up. I really hope it's RED. If you ask me...Mysterium-X is the best sensor out there. That's why I went with EPIC.

It's a shame that the Alexa seems to have become the high-end camera of choice for TV. It's all because Alexa writes ProRes on camera. I guess RED got the message with the new Meizler Module? Does that thing write multiple Mb/sec versions of DNxHD & ProRes? Anyway...for my purposes, it's to big...too much extra weight...and to much extra $$$!!! We need a small, lightweight, affordable 1080HD SSD writer, made by RED that docks with EPIC.

 

[Jim Grieco]

Here is a clip I cut together from the NY Giants Footage I referenced earlier in this thread. Shot EFP style with my EPIC...using my Canon 17x7.7 HD lens via my HDx35 B4/PL Optical Adapter.

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