Use the whole sensor (firmware update or hardware?)

[Matt Paul Catalano]

I've run into a predicament after picking up the Epic-W 8K Helium. A lot of my work is done wide angle at high frame rates 90-120fps. In order to get those high frame rates I have to crop the sensor to 5k or 4k. Then, in order to stay as wide as possible, I have to find lenses that are extra wide, 8-12mm or more, which often introduces distortion and other artifacts.

Is it possible in future firmware to add the ability to add a mode in which the sensor / image processor can use the entire sensor and automatically downscale it if the user / DP chooses to do so? This would allow us to use 14-24mm lenses at high frame rates and not have to kit out more lenses for wide angle high frame rate shots. I would assume the ability to downscale in real time would require another processor and would be a hardware requirement.

 

[Brendan H. Banks]

I would assume the ability to downscale in real time would require another processor and would be a hardware requirement.

You are correct, that's more what the Weapon Helium is for. It'll do 60fps @ 8K or 7K. It has to do with how quickly the sensor can refresh and since RED shoots raw, there's no line skipping or summing like on some other brands of cameras.

 

[Matt Bai]

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?153545-HOT-ROD-Module

 

[paulcurtis]

I've run into a predicament after picking up the Epic-W 8K Helium. A lot of my work is done wide angle at high frame rates 90-120fps. In order to get those high frame rates I have to crop the sensor to 5k or 4k. Then, in order to stay as wide as possible, I have to find lenses that are extra wide, 8-12mm or more, which often introduces distortion and other artifacts.

Is it possible in future firmware to add the ability to add a mode in which the sensor / image processor can use the entire sensor and automatically downscale it if the user / DP chooses to do so? This would allow us to use 14-24mm lenses at high frame rates and not have to kit out more lenses for wide angle high frame rate shots. I would assume the ability to downscale in real time would require another processor and would be a hardware requirement.

6K is a sweet spot for HFR and size of sensor. The wider you go (less vertical height of the sensor) the faster as well.

There are some nice wide optics around these days. The latest sigma 12-24 f4 is pretty good. There's an Irix 15mm which is very nice and soon that will be joined by an 11mm. Venus optics have a 12mm that's getting good reviews.

It really depends how wide is wide. On APS-C i used to shoot a 12mm voightlander a lot - that was a great fov for me, on full frame it's too wide for most uses. The 15mm Irix at 6K was as wide as i really need with people in the frame.

cheers
Paul

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Doesn't shooting in-camera ProRes accomplish what you want?

To me, having the lower resolution version while retaining the original framing characteristics was always the real benefit of in-camera ProRes. I am a die hard fan of shooting REDraw so I always struggle a little with the idea of going straight to ProRes. But this use of it makes sense. Meanwhile, I don't see much value - given the technical complications - of immediately downscaling the raw signal. You can always do that pretty quickly in post if you really need to.

I know it will save some space on mag cards but I'd think the storage technology is a lot simpler and cheaper to deal with than the compression technology needed to accomplish what you are requesting. And, I can't see that the in-camera downscaling would help your frame rate issues. It's not likely to give you that capability without sophisticated tech that would simply put you up to a new level of camera. For that, you can just move up to a higher level camera.

 

[Matt Paul Catalano]

Right, but if I explained exactly why I need as much corner to corner image as possible it would make more sense. I'm used to shooting 15mm fisheye on a full frame 35mm specifically for surfing where I'm inside the barrel with the surfer. The best part of the shot is when I'm about 1-5 feet away from the subject and at 15mm normally I can see quite a lot. Obviously I could upgrade to the VV sensor to go ultra wide or maybe combine a few Red cameras together to make one massive Red camera but then it becomes impossible to swim with in that situation.

So an 8mm fisheye lens would become 20mm fisheye, or an 11mm rectilinear would become 28mm. Missing out on 5mm and about 14mm on the non distorted side. If I could use the whole sensor somehow at 120 fps that would solve a lot of problems.

 

[Stacey Spears]

The sensor has a max FPS. For 8K is it something like 60 fps using the full sensor. That is how fast the sensor can read out every pixel. Lowering the output resolution, by scaling the image, does not change this as you are still reading 8K worth of pixels. The VV has that same limit.

The Weapon / VV do support higher frame rates, at lower resolutions, than EPIC / Scarlet / Raven and you pay a premium for it. Or lower compression at higher resolutions.

My VV was just used under water with the Canon 11-24. They did shoot 8K HD (7680) at 11mm. At full width (8192) there was vignetting at 11mm. I think 12mm might have been okay at 8192.

 

[Matt Paul Catalano]

Makes sense. No perfect tool for every job just need to get another camera to handle the in-water wide angle work in slow motion at 4K (ie: Phantom) or simply give up the data rate and use a Scarlet or Raven.

The VV underwater must me amazing to watch on the big screen. Can't wait to see all the new tech being put to use on the big screen in the near future.

 

[Marcus Friedlander]

Makes sense. No perfect tool for every job just need to get another camera to handle the in-water wide angle work in slow motion at 4K (ie: Phantom) or simply give up the data rate and use a Scarlet or Raven.

I think you are on the right track with this thinking. In this case, a camera with a Dragon sensor, or a phantom, is the better tool for the job. You could pick up a (relatively) cheap Epic Dragon brain and shoot 96FPS in 5k with a S35 gate.

 

[Daniel Kelly Brown]

I shoot a bunch of over cranked sports related things as well. I decided to stick with the MG weapon and not upgrade because I just would not be able to get wide enough for my needs without dealing with the distorted fisheye look.

Perhaps you can trade your Helium brain for a Weapon MG brain plus some cash with someone on reduser? Or stick it out and wait for the Weapon VV upgrade, that probably the best all around one camera option.

Good luck to ya!