Upset about not having the fixed 2/3" Scarlet??

[Emanuel A.]

Sweet spot for what? Big feature films and most expensive tv-drama in the world.
You know these don't cover for even 1% of professional (digital) moving picture camera usage.

Well, since I have no numbers, then I wouldn't say 1% but rather the opposite since the whole HDSLR thing came (professional world too), my and many others own impression.

However, with RED and a larger sensor you have anything smaller, apart camera size as David Mullen has wisely pointed out.

Anyway, 35mm format has been among us for years ;-)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/35_mm_film

 

[Ruben and Sheri O.]

Sorry calling you kid didn't mean any disrespect it did sound like we where attacking us but we are all friends here all good =) Luv u all =)

Well, As I said my post wasn't meant to be taken in a bad hearted nature.

It's just that you have people talking about an actual valid point of having a s16mm digital format and your replies kinda disregard everything with substance being discussed "STOOPPPP COMPLAININGGGGGG"

No one is complaining. We are discussing, we can't?

For the one who said I belong youtube. Again, I didn't meant to attack as a flame and that was pretty much said on my post.

On the other hand, when you call me KID, and try to disregard my opinion saying to go to a corner (because of my age? that's the pun?) comes out as kinda flamy and offensive for me.

My second language isn't as well English so the tone of things may get lost in translation. But that's why I said two or 3 times that I'm not stoning you, just asking you please for not being so disrespectful with the actual good discussion we are having here.

True about the Ignore button. I don't like it but might as well use it.

Implying I'm talking for Jim and being disrespectful is also a long shot from what I said. I said I THINK he would prefer people who get all the points of view. But ok, keep it that way.

Again my apologies for who got my message as an offensive attack.

Being positive doesn't mean you have to accept everything that you have in front on your face. I for once find myself in a positive position on this situation. Scarlet X is a great camera and there can be turnarounds on what to do. That doesn't mean I can't give my opinion on a Post talking about the fixed camera on the 2/3" S16mm topic.

First time on REDUSER I see a post like "Go to a corner until you have something nice to say"

That seemed more offensive than anything on this thread (That but the Fuck positive people, but that was a point being made).

It seems this have railed long from the actual topic. And I stated my opinion afterwards on my later post.

Good day!

 

[Felix K.]

I think if nothing new is coming up this is going to be my last post on the topic.
I want to thank everyone who managed to voice their frustration, disappointment and critique towards RED in a - as I find - civil manner. There have been discussions here that were far worse than what happened in the last few days. The biggest comfort for me was sharing our disappointment.

As for Jim: three posts for the Scarlet-crowd after three years and hundrets of posts of teasing? I don't understand it.

 

[Emanuel A.]

As for Jim: three posts for the Scarlet-crowd after three years and hundrets of posts of teasing? I don't understand it.

Felix,

You should well know I have much respect for you not only 'cause Bamberg is yet on my schedule list ;-) but this seems to me a 'marriage farewell'. And he simply couldn't 'marry' two at the same time It isn't hard to get what's going on here. Maybe next turn

Greetings from just a couple of thousands (of kms) away,

E

 

[toke lahti]

Well, since I have no numbers, then I wouldn't say 1% but rather the opposite since the whole HDSLR thing came (professional world too), my and many others own impression.
However, with RED and a larger sensor you have anything smaller, apart camera size as David Mullen has wisely pointed out.

Lets assume that over 50% of all professional moving image content is EFP or other multicamera productions edited live or near live.
Have you seen any production doing those with 35mm sensors or any HDSLR?
Next biggest portion is probably eng/doco work, where in some cases 35mm/hdslr can be used, but most of the time smaller sensor size is preferred.
AFAIK hdslr's are mainly used in small ad/corporate video work, when you don't have to produce many hours of footage per day, but you can't afford "real" 35mm.
Like music videos, promo videos and such. Pretty niche if you look at the whole industry.

Could you point me to that Mullen's stuff you referred?

I know it is possible to use adapters to use 2/3" eng lenses with Scarlet, but those loose a lot of light and again raises the cost of big sensor camera compared to smaller one.
Maybe the only viable solution for "real" DSMC would be more pixels to the sensor and to use FF with stills and cropped sensor with video that needs it.
Problems still are sensitivity and bandwidth & processing power for interpolating. Maybe next gen after a few years...
30Mpx FF35 for still (16fps) (43mm diag)
16Mpx s35 30fps (31mm d)
8 Mpx 4/3" 60fps (22mm d)
2.5 Mpx s16 190fps (12.5mm d)
2 Mpx 2/3" 240fps (11mm d)

So to have decent 2k resolution in 2/3", you'd have to have 30Mpx FF sensor.
This is of course very expensive, but MX is quite close with its 13Mpx s35.
Just 23% more pixels, and we could have 2k with 2/3".
If MX costs ~$4k and we assume that price of sensor quadruples when pixelcount doubles, then 16Mpx s35 would be $6000.
(By the way, good adapter costs more than $2k...)
And 30Mpx FF35 would be $21k.

At the same time you can buy 20Mpx still camera for $1-2k.
And they have something that none of the under $100k cinema cameras have: optical viewfinder.
I just can't come up with any reason why somebody would not want wysiwyg today, when all electornic EVFs & small screens have less than 1M pixels.
Toshiba is onto something with this: http://technabob.com/blog/2011/10/20/toshiba-2560x1600-resolution-display/
If RED cameras had 6 digits in their serial number this price difference might be smaller, but before that I just don't see any economically justifiable reason to use RED as still camera.
And if you don't use it for stills, many of us would prefer cheaper price than s35 sensor.
There's nothing wrong with Scarlet-X, but specwise it's so close to Epic, that I would have released it's little brother before it.
I like quality, but I like quality-price ratio even more.

As tech advances, shooting will be more and more about the glass.
I wouldn't be surprised if in the year 2025 lenses would have "internal" sensors, since the price of "everything else" is only fraction of the lens.
Also, it was the lens that became the achilles' heel for 2/3"-scarlet.
It would be interesting to know why RED couldn't get it work. There aren't many 2/3" cameras with fixed lens and maybe RED now knows why.
Decent 10x zoom for eng/doco/event/etc. with somekind of fast system for ND is nowhere to be seen.
Canon offers 2 lenses; the other costs $600 and the other $47k. Talking about price gaps!
Sony offers 14x for $12k, but surprisingly it only works with their F3...

RED has once again exploded the market with 4k for 10k.
Just wondering why not 3k for 6k with 4/3"?
Pana offers AF100, but with inferior codec.
So many pieces in the puzzle that nobody in the industry wants to get it right?

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Everyone is joking, right? I actually completely agree with John. Reuben and Sheri may be bring "positive energy" to Reduser, but frankly ignoring any and all grammatical rules to end up with a post that barks at people that their opinion is the only correct one, and that all decisions that Red makes are the best for everyone is a bit ridiculous. I mean no disrespect to you, Josh, but consider your and Ruben and Sheri's join date. (I don't mean to say that join date is everything, as it's certainly quite possible that both you and Reuben and Sheri were long-time lurkers, as I once was.) It's exceedingly difficult for anyone to be "widely respected" and "held in high regard" after only 1-2 months of joining a community. Compare the content of their posts and the contribution they have made to the Reduser community to other members who most Redusers would agree have a respected and highly regarded status, like David Mullen or Ketch Rossi; you'll find that there is an extreme difference.

...

++1

 

[Ruben and Sheri O.]

Ok Terry we have closed this argument please don't stir anything else up with ur plus 1, we all talked it out last night and found respect and peace with one an other...let's just get back to the topics of RED, peace be with u good sir=)

++1

 

[Wayne Morellini]

I probably shouldn't even be responding to this thread; in fact, I should be out making a decision on Plan B...

But that's what makes this so heartbreaking... the fact that many are being forced to consider and execute their Plan B. We LOVE Red. We love everything they stand for, and everything that Red represents. We've waited and waited and waited, hoping that we could join part of the team; be part of the family.

But, as Jim would probably say...business is business. And as much as it must have pained Jim and crew to make the tough decision regarding Scarlet Fixed, it pains many of us that we have to make the tough decision and go somewhere else...

Where will we go? ( I feel a Fiddler-on-the-Roof scene coming on) That's the saddest, most ironic part. Many of us are still in limbo, with no company out there really catering to some of the things our market is clamoring for. ...

Umconventional: Panasonic Gh2 hack + rig, latest are extreme bit rates for the camera and nice sensor, but 1080p, low frame rates. New Canon eos slr + rug. Gh3 and pro version a potential nice, but 1080p system. A number of cameras are starting to record 8 MP stilks at video rates, so we will see if anything else comes out. As for me, I'll have to decide while I'm waiting for a new scarlet fixed.

 

[Øystein Iversen]

I think Red should explain the issue and theire thoughts
around the fixed. Are they going to develop it further?
Or is the fixed a lost case. Why the silence? A byline in the
announcement is not good enough. And certainly not respectfull
to people waiting around on this forum looking forward to work
with the fixed. Just saying it is better to confirm that it is scrapped,
then all this speculations and negative atmosphere this has created.

I guess "everything changes" is more then true.
There is a spot in the market just waiting for something like
the fixed. I just hope Red will turn in this case, because people-including me,
are very very dissapointed. Years of waiting man, you can't just ignore that.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

If it seems that a “space” in the market has been left by RED…

If it really is the case that a 3k 2/3” run and gun is desperately needed then why don’t you take a leaf out of RED’s book and build your own 3k open source camera? It may or may not have REDCODE… I don’t know if you can buy a license for that. But instead of winging about it all… Maybe you can DO something about it? It’s not beyond the wit of man, but it’s not super easy either. In the areas I work and develop in I am used to virtually everything (off the shelf) NOT being what we need to do what we need to do. I don’t expect ALL of these companies to stop what they are doing and change everything to suit my applications (this had never crossed my mind because I know such an approach is ludicrous). Instead we figured out how we could do what we needed to do ourselves. The fact that Scarlet-X fulfills OUR needs beyond my wildest expectations is definitely the exception, (there are things that we still need to work on, but it’s in the right ball park for once). That has never happened before… and believe me we have researched everything out there…

E

I know I’ll get flamed skewered and roasted for this one.

We already tried this one over at dvinfo, Jim decided to go ahead after reading about our efforts. The problem was always over hyped, know too little, what would be described outside the film industry as wankers. They throw a lot of money time and popularity at failure, just mentally not set up for the rigors of it. The only real solution is to throw lots of money at somebody that knows what they are doing. The real shame is that while wagging the shinny cheap digital cinema camera thing out there to get a real company, like Red, tonoriduce a cheap camera, I waited for others to complete there promises, then Red to comokete theirs, and didn't do one myself. So now everything is so complex, and Red seems to be aiming for what I was, with a lot of online guidence .Now the bar is so high it is a challenge to make a comoeting system.

However, for you guys out there, there are some alternatives if you want to make a new fixed like system or s35 . At dvinfo a ooensource project was started using the elphel camera platform, search either site for details on the digital cinema camera systems. The elphels have opensourced fpgas, the regular sensors and codecs are well, miserable despite the enthusuasm of people, but it has great promise. There are better sensor options , and you can probably hook up what you want, you being the optimal word, and has uncompressed recording possibility, at less than fixed prices likely. Also uses linux. There was a university out near berkly or harvid, I forget , that had an open source camera project. Or you could find a way to legally hack a gh2 to recird raw sensor at 48 or 50p, or othervery nnice camera (so 2 choices so far) as well as string of other cameras that pull raw off the chip and producec
High speed stills etc. For 50k you could even make your own 1000 unit run of uncompressed cheap can.


Have fun .

 

[Wayne Morellini]

I think Red should explain the issue and theire thoughts
around the fixed. Are they going to develop it further?
Or is the fixed a lost case. Why the silence?.

I agree. I suspect a new fixed is coming, Terry certainly seems to be hinting so for some reason, with all his waiting for the fixed, with all those big puppy dog eyes of his ? It would have been nice, respectfully, if we had been told fixed was scrapped or put back months back, so we make over plans and not spend so much time here waiting for it.

As for the 300 movie still of the guy holding a scarlet x in the 300 thread, the guy looks more like somebody having a rude awakening while accidentally sitting on one than shouting victory. .

 

[Benoît-Joan Clariana-Roig]

I agree. I suspect a new fixed is coming

Or, at least, an interchangeable 2/3". But they won't talk about before it's ready to ship. I think that's why they changed their way of communicating, they knew that a lot of people were expecting a 2/3" cam. Unfortunately, I'm almost sure that I won't wait too long now before spending my money for something else.

After 3 years of waiting, seeing videos, reading few hundreds of posts from RED saying how wonderful that 2/3" cam will be, I think we deserved at least a clarification about the 2/3" RED format : DEAD or NOT ? :mad5:

RED Mini PL mount : DEAD or NOT ? :mad5:
RED Mini primes : DEAD or NOT ? :mad5:
6mm 1.5
8mm 1.5
16mm 1.5
25mm 1.5
50mm 2.9

 

[AndreasOberg]

I wanted to applaud the Red team for the new Scarlet.

Scarlet is everything that I wanted (and a LOT more).
I'm VERY happy about:
+ the lenses can be switched! YES. I really, really hated the idea of using a fixed lens. I stopped using a single lens in still cameras 15 years ago and never want to go back.
+ I can use Canon lenses. I'm sure the Red lenses are fantastic but they are a bit steep for about $20.000. I'm very happy that I can use the Canon lenses for most special cases. 100mm Macro IS, 85mm 1.2
+ The resolution. Oh my! 4k. Fantastic, incredible. Shocking. Earth shattering. Jaw breaking.
+ No evil problems with line skipping or other nasty problems that the 5d has. Brr, I hated it deeply from day one.
+ RAW. Being able to work in RAW on movies is truly a dream.
+ That all Epic accessories match. Fantastic.

- The only thing that I will miss on Scarlet is the slow motion, but I rather have a camera that can film IMAX/cinema quality in normal speed than slow motion in TV quality. The 60fps in 2k resolution should be useful for some cases, maybe the 1k slow motion too, maybe.
- The SSD cards are a bit pricy. 120GB for $2000 is painful.

Once again a fantastic technical feat. I'm extremely happy.
/Andreas

 

[Leonidas Forteza]

SCARLET is AMAZING. And I am over the moon. I'm genuinely sorry for those who aren't. Natural to share your disappointment. But from the man whose every post tells you to expect the specs to change.... I dunno... I always felt like I was walking into this release eyes wide open, knowing anything could happen... I had opened up my expectations prior to avoid suffering.

ENG guys, it's tough. I thought Mark Toia made a good post. But this post ^^
Man, now thats a post that pulls at my heart strings.

Leonidas, If I make decent money out of my next film. I swear to god I'll give my Scarlet to you.
The Scarlet Indie film dream is one I understand and deeply appreciate.

Alternatively. You said you could get 6K Leonidas? So if there's another eighty REDusers willing to throw a hundred in, then you'd have your scarlet, and your dreams could come true right?

So I'll throw in the first. (My only caveat is that you must start using more paragraphs!!)

* Those of like mind, please see the new, everyone can't be happy, but hey, maybe just one more person can... thread I'm starting.

Best Wishes

Lliam

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Thank you Lliam for your understanding and kindness, I really appreciated. I will pray for you to succeed on your next film. Please let me know when it's done, I would love to take a look at it. Also like to thank you from the bottom of my heart for your sympathy and the courage to want to help me. I wish you the best as well and may our good lord bless you in every way.

Sincerely
Leonidas

Note: And regarding the paragraphs, sorry about that, I'll make sure I use more of them next time.

 

[Øystein Iversen]

Sure. Everybody do agree that the Scarlet is a good camera. It is great camera. It is fantastic. But is the 2/3 program still alive? That´s the only thing i would like to know.

 

[Lawrence Bansbach]

Not quite. They stated they don't believe the market is ready for 4k.
Pat

Actually, in addition to the C300, Canon announced it was developing an HDSLR capable of 4K video.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

One take on this over at CML is along the line of:

Look at the a-cam and SI. They are in "scarlet land" but haven't become hugely successfull products.

The downside of going 2/3" in a marketing setting, outweighs the upsides. I can see that.

Offering the Scarlet package at/bellow the Canon and F3 with S-log/444 is a real competitive offer into a market that has showed a lot of practical demand.

As to micro 4:3 sensors, the only offering I know (the panny) hasn't been a huge success, for whatver reason...

Offering a 4k S35 body-only at almost half the price of what we early guys were ready to shell up fir a R1 M bidy back in 2008, really is proof of a crazy change in the business... To the better for the customers.

Add Epic-like images at that price.

It is about as good as it gets.

Some of us looking into the 2/3" 3k cam, thougt about it for "all that other stuff", but tere's really nothing of that that cannot be done with the current Scarlet-X, except 3k @ 120 fps... (which isn't trivial...)

My bet is that RED got it about right again with specs and prices.


G
(Shooting Epic/R1 for now...)

 

[Maxi Claudio]

I was hoping RED would put out a 1/3" Surveillance model with C-mount. Damn them!!! Monitor Shop lifters at 1000 fps.

 

[Benoît-Joan Clariana-Roig]

I was hoping RED would put out a 1/3" Surveillance model with C-mount. Damn them!!! Monitor Shop lifters at 1000 fps.

FYI, a recent hack of the GH2 enables SD video @ 10 000 FPS.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

FYI, a recent hack of the GH2 enables SD video @ 10 000 FPS. And this is not a joke. http://vimeo.com/31668259

hahahahahahahaha!