Upset about not having the fixed 2/3" Scarlet??

[Eric Lange]

If it seems that a “space” in the market has been left by RED…

If it really is the case that a 3k 2/3” run and gun is desperately needed then why don’t you take a leaf out of RED’s book and build your own 3k open source camera? It may or may not have REDCODE… I don’t know if you can buy a license for that. But instead of winging about it all… Maybe you can DO something about it? It’s not beyond the wit of man, but it’s not super easy either. In the areas I work and develop in I am used to virtually everything (off the shelf) NOT being what we need to do what we need to do. I don’t expect ALL of these companies to stop what they are doing and change everything to suit my applications (this had never crossed my mind because I know such an approach is ludicrous). Instead we figured out how we could do what we needed to do ourselves. The fact that Scarlet-X fulfills OUR needs beyond my wildest expectations is definitely the exception, (there are things that we still need to work on, but it’s in the right ball park for once). That has never happened before… and believe me we have researched everything out there…

E

I know I’ll get flamed skewered and roasted for this one.

OR saving up the extra $4K is perhaps less of a risk and using lower cost re-jigged primes…on the S-x

Nothing is perfect but somehow you still need to get the job done hook or by crook (to be honest that’s probably the most important single attribute that is needed for film making. On most real productions it’s all about solving the PROBLEMS with what you have, there really isn’t this imagined “perfection” that people keep going on about.

 

[Felix K.]

It's more than just a little blemish. They talked about that camera for years. Teased us with features, 3D renders, test footage, Behind-The-Scenes videos, prototypes, interviews with prototypes, specs and prices...
We spent hours reading about the stuff, articulating our ideas and thoughts, gave positive feedback, declared our interest in the product and loyalty to RED. And what did we get? A kick in the nuts.

 

[Robert Jackson]

If it really is the case that a 3k 2/3” run and gun is desperately needed then why don’t you take a leaf out of RED’s book and build your own 3k open source camera?

Excellent idea...I'll just sell my $2 billion sunglasses company and fire up the production line...oh wait...

 

[Eric Lange]

It's more than just a little blemish. They talked about that camera for years. Teased us with features, 3D renders, test footage, Behind-The-Scenes videos, prototypes, interviews with prototypes, specs and prices...
We spent hours reading about the stuff, articulating our ideas and thoughts, gave positive feedback, declared our interest in the product and loyalty to RED. And what did we get? A kick in the nuts.

I know…

The things you Felix say through this whole thread seem to be the most clear and honorable (perhaps).

So the lead designers changed their mind and came up against some insoluble technical/production/business model issues. I’m not really sure what the ethics are for changing one’s mind, for a direction that makes sense for the continued survival of the company?

We have thousands of designs but we don’t show ANYTHING even to close partners unless it’s absolutely in the final stretch.

RED really did research things very thoroughly it seems, obviously risked several to many millions of dollars to explore the earlier Scarlet concept. It seems in the end that they were on a hiding to nothing.. i.e. to follow through on the more original concept would basically cause them significant harm it seems. I’m sure they tried EVERYTHING to make the concept work but probably from a business and technical standpoint it probably just didn’t make any sense. I’ve been in similar situations and have had to pull the plug on certain things. I am glad that I did but it is hard for everybody involved no question about it. We lucked out…

E

 

[Denis Haineault]

It's more than just a little blemish. They talked about that camera for years. Teased us with features, 3D renders, test footage, Behind-The-Scenes videos, prototypes, interviews with prototypes, specs and prices...
We spent hours reading about the stuff, articulating our ideas and thoughts, gave positive feedback, declared our interest in the product and loyalty to RED. And what did we get? A kick in the nuts.

For those (maybe newer to reduser) who think people like Felix are overreacting, just read the (original) Scarlet FAQ:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?22619-Scarlet-FAQs

 

[Eric Lange]

Excellent idea...I'll just sell my $2 billion sunglasses company and fire up the production line...oh wait...

I don’t have a billion dollar sun glasses company either. It hasn’t stopped us from developing game changing technologies. That’s where people and talent come in and the ability to wear many different hats really well.

The thing that’s really interesting is that Jim started out selling rubber fittings/straps for glasses for the BMX/motocross crowd from out of the back of his car.

If you have a good plan you find the right people and try to make it happen.

Robert I really respect what you say, but if one languished in a defeatist attitude (as some might be inclined to do), then NOTHING is going to happen, guaranteed…

I have had unbelievable disappointments and obstacles in my life… I pick myself up off the floor, brush myself down and get on with it! We still move forward and upwards.

When I see a so called failure, I see opportunity. It’s amazing how many situations can be turned on their head and to one’s advantage.

Be creative, solve the problem…

There are a lot of very enthusiastic and bright people on REDUSER, get organized, bring focus, ask really good questions and so on see what CAN be done rather than what Cannot?

E

 

[Robert Jackson]

We have thousands of designs but we don’t show ANYTHING even to close partners unless it’s absolutely in the final stretch.

Which is the big difference. Red set up a promotional campaign first for the "Red Pocket Professional" and then for the "Scarlet"...and then a while back they decided that a Super-35 sensor didn't belong in the Scarlet so the "Scarlet S35" became the "Epic-S" with another round of fanfare, clearly as a line of demarcation between the Epic and Scarlet products. We've had three years of them making it very clear that Scarlet was going to be a 2/3" camera with options including a fixed lens model and an interchangeable lens model with a series of mini primes and their own mini prime lens mount. And then they even changed the focal lengths available in their mini prime range and showed prototypes like the one pictured below.

So yeah...if they'd played mum's-the-word they wouldn't have potential customers with a giant 'WTF!?!?" above their heads. Which is probably why Mr. Jannard posted something a while back about never telling people what they're up to again or whatever. Because three years of active promotion turned out to be for a product he'd decided not to build.

 

[Felix K.]

I know…

The things you Felix say through this whole thread seem to be the most clear and honorable (perhaps).

So the lead designers changed their mind and came up against some insoluble technical/production/business model issues. I’m not really sure what the ethics are for changing one’s mind, for a direction that makes sense for the continued survival of the company?

We have thousands of designs but we don’t show ANYTHING even to close partners unless it’s absolutely in the final stretch.

RED really did research things very thoroughly it seems, obviously risked several to many millions of dollars to explore the earlier Scarlet concept. It seems in the end that they were on a hiding to nothing.. i.e. to follow through on the more original concept would basically cause them significant harm it seems. I’m sure they tried EVERYTHING to make the concept work but probably from a business and technical standpoint it probably just didn’t make any sense. I’ve been in similar situations and have had to pull the plug on certain things. I am glad that I did but it is hard for everybody involved no question about it. We lucked out…

E

Thanks for the kind words.
Fact is, we don't know what happened. We can speculate all we want. Doesn't change the facts. Red was not so open about their projects out of sheer altruism. They wanted the feedback. Jim said so several times.
I just don't see how they can turn around 180 degrees on such a huge project within a few weeks. And especially, why they all of are sudden are not open about that! They even let us vote for the HDRx implementation because it would raise the price about 1000$. We were part of that camera.
What I hate the most is, how RED is totally quiet about it all. We got three posts from Jim. That's it. After 3 years.
Now we are "everyone" all of a sudden and can't be pleased.

 

[Emanuel A.]

If it seems that a “space” in the market has been left by RED…

As same as it would occur with the sub-USD$10,000 market target if RED wouldn't show up the original Scarlet S35 / Epic-S / Scarlet-X as it came to happen. A better winner than any two thirds camera. Take a look on the competition: Sony, Canon, even Panasonic with the four thirds format. Anything else more to say?

 

[Emanuel A.]

OK Robert, with one or another exception you have always something worthy to show (my usual respect but the point is not only B&W 'cause when it is, choices have to be made.

I would never trade the Scarlet-X for anything other than more frame rates perhaps if not (decidedly) smaller sensor size. 35mm has been the sweet spot for longer than a century. And that's the whole point IMHO.

 

[Benoît-Joan Clariana-Roig]

Anything else more to say?

I'll need quickly my own cam, I can't borrow or rent cam anymore. Money is ready... Anybody has an idea here ?

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Thanks for the kind words.
Fact is, we don't know what happened. We can speculate all we want. Doesn't change the facts. Red was not so open about their projects out of sheer altruism. They wanted the feedback. Jim said so several times.
I just don't see how they can turn around 180 degrees on such a huge project within a few weeks. And especially, why they all of are sudden are not open about that! They even let us vote for the HDRx implementation because it would raise the price about 1000$. We were part of that camera.
What I hate the most is, how RED is totally quiet about it all. We got three posts from Jim. That's it. After 3 years.

RED is NOT a democratical institution.
But the userbase-involment-as-a-marketing-plan sometimes leads us to think that way.

At some stage, they will have to make decissions

Now they have done exactly that and bliss oh bliss: The camera is actually in the store and will be delivered...

I am glad they have re-branded the Epic-S as Scarlet and put on some grey paint. Takes away a lot of confusion.

As it seems like S35 is the holy grail for most indies, i'd be surprised if that choice was the wrong one.
Good for A-cam probably, and proof that there are still room for more than RED, Arri and Sony...

 

[Gunleik Groven]

It's more than just a little blemish. They talked about that camera for years. Teased us with features, 3D renders, test footage, Behind-The-Scenes videos, prototypes, interviews with prototypes, specs and prices...
We spent hours reading about the stuff, articulating our ideas and thoughts, gave positive feedback, declared our interest in the product and loyalty to RED. And what did we get? A kick in the nuts.

Somehow I have the feeling that nether you, nor me are employed by RED.
Yes, they gauge the waters, but if it is you, me and Robert who really wanted the 2/3, it's not really a great businessplan.

I wanted the 2/3, too as a sidekick to my Epic, but when it doesn't show up, I can allways save those money and buy something else. Maybe have a cigar. Who knows.

 

[Felix K.]

Somehow I have the feeling that nether you, nor me are employed by RED.
Yes, they gauge the waters, but if it is you, me and Robert who really wanted the 2/3, it's not really a great businessplan.

I wanted the 2/3, too as a sidekick to my Epic, but when it doesn't show up, I can allways save those money and buy something else. Maybe have a cigar. Who knows.

Lucky you.

 

[Steven Veldkamp]

Somehow I have the feeling that nether you, nor me are employed by RED.
Yes, they gauge the waters, but if it is you, me and Robert who really wanted the 2/3, it's not really a great businessplan.

I wanted the 2/3, too as a sidekick to my Epic, but when it doesn't show up, I can allways save those money and buy something else. Maybe have a cigar. Who knows.

Perhaps, if you took some time to look around the web you would see it's not 'just' a few folks complaining about this.
I know a quite few colleagues around here who are pretty disappointed by this announcement.

They might not all be posting here, but that doesn't mean they're not there.

 

[Robert Jackson]

I don’t have a billion dollar sun glasses company either. It hasn’t stopped us from developing game changing technologies. That’s where people and talent come in and the ability to wear many different hats really well.

The thing that’s really interesting is that Jim started out selling rubber fittings/straps for glasses for the BMX/motocross crowd from out of the back of his car.

If you have a good plan you find the right people and try to make it happen.

Robert I really respect what you say, but if one languished in a defeatist attitude (as some might be inclined to do), then NOTHING is going to happen, guaranteed…

I have had unbelievable disappointments and obstacles in my life… I pick myself up off the floor, brush myself down and get on with it! We still move forward and upwards.

When I see a so called failure, I see opportunity. It’s amazing how many situations can be turned on their head and to one’s advantage.

Be creative, solve the problem…

There are a lot of very enthusiastic and bright people on REDUSER, get organized, bring focus, ask really good questions and so on see what CAN be done rather than what Cannot?

E

What you're saying is all fine and good, but I'm pretty sure nobody has been spouting a defeatist manifesto. I'm just really disappointed that this camera I'd been all psyched to buy isn't going to exist anymore.

But yeah, we all suffer setbacks and you have to either work through them or change directions. Red changed directions. They just never admitted that they'd had to scrap the Scarlet program and that kinda stings for someone who'd bought into the hype.

I'll tell you a story real fast, though. 11 years ago I did this to my left arm trying to ride a 600-pound motorcycle the way I'd ridden bikes a third that size when I was 20 years younger.

I had no use of my left arm for weeks. And thanks to the lengthy surgery being performed while I was upside-down on a horseshoe table the nerves in my right arm had suffered compression and that arm didn't work for a week or so, either. While I was struggling through physical therapy I decided to finish film school, which I'd abandoned when I got my first TV job decades earlier. And then just as I was getting back up to speed and starting to work on a number of interesting projects again my step-father died leaving me with the responsibility for my 90-year-old mother who has advanced Alzheimer's. I'd seen my grandmother whither away in a nursing home and swore to myself I wouldn't let that happen to mom, so now I'm hand-building boutique guitar amplifiers with one of my childhood friends because I can do that at home and still keep track of mom. Which is one of the reasons I haven't been as pressed regarding a camera purchase because my life is currently on hold while I care for someone who has no idea who I am half the time.

But learning cabinetry skills and developing an ability to machine metal has been very rewarding. That's how life works. If something explodes in your face you figure out how to make something work in your new circumstances. And if you're lucky the new things you learn will serve you well later on in life. Right now I've got two prototypes coming up that will allow me to A/B one made with carbon comp resistors with a second amp built exactly the same way only using wire-wound resistors because I think the only difference in sound is likely to be less hiss in the wire-wound model and even though that breaks with "tradition" for guitar amp construction I think it's likely to be a positive change. But I may be wrong. Having a pair to A/B for some working friends will allow me to solicit some feedback (no pun intended) and see if I'm on the right track.

Enthusiasm and motivation is the key to everything in life. I'd never dispute that. I'm just bummed 'cause there's no 2/3" Scarlet with mini primes for me. ;-)

 

[Emanuel A.]

I'll need quickly my own cam, I can't borrow or rent cam anymore. Money is ready... Anybody has an idea here ?

Understood. How much do you have for?

 

[Eric Lange]

What you're saying is all fine and good, but I'm pretty sure nobody has been spouting a defeatist manifesto. I'm just really disappointed that this camera I'd been all psyched to buy isn't going to exist anymore.

But yeah, we all suffer setbacks and you have to either work through them or change directions. Red changed directions. They just never admitted that they'd had to scrap the Scarlet program and that kinda stings for someone who'd bought into the hype.

I'll tell you a story real fast, though. 11 years ago I did this to my left arm trying to ride a 600-pound motorcycle the way I'd ridden bikes a third that size when I was 20 years younger.

I had no use of my left arm for weeks. And thanks to the lengthy surgery being performed while I was upside-down on a horseshoe table the nerves in my right arm had suffered compression and that arm didn't work for a week or so, either. While I was struggling through physical therapy I decided to finish film school, which I'd abandoned when I got my first TV job decades earlier. And then just as I was getting back up to speed and starting to work on a number of interesting projects again my step-father died leaving me with the responsibility for my 90-year-old mother who has advanced Alzheimer's. I'd seen my grandmother whither away in a nursing home and swore to myself I wouldn't let that happen to mom, so now I'm hand-building boutique guitar amplifiers with one of my childhood friends because I can do that at home and still keep track of mom. Which is one of the reasons I haven't been as pressed regarding a camera purchase because my life is currently on hold while I care for someone who has no idea who I am half the time.

But learning cabinetry skills and developing an ability to machine metal has been very rewarding. That's how life works. If something explodes in your face you figure out how to make something work in your new circumstances. And if you're lucky the new things you learn will serve you well later on in life. Right now I've got two prototypes coming up that will allow me to A/B one made with carbon comp resistors with a second amp built exactly the same way only using wire-wound resistors because I think the only difference in sound is likely to be less hiss in the wire-wound model and even though that breaks with "tradition" for guitar amp construction I think it's likely to be a positive change. But I may be wrong. Having a pair to A/B for some working friends will allow me to solicit some feedback (no pun intended) and see if I'm on the right track.

Enthusiasm and motivation is the key to everything in life. I'd never dispute that. I'm just bummed 'cause there's no 2/3" Scarlet with mini primes for me. ;-)

Great stuff (thanks for sharing)… I have similar stories and injuries (actually)…(ALL kinds of thing I don’t or won’t share on REDUSER…but in my case it’s horses not motor cycles, when I saw that X ray I thought it was my own right arm (for a moment) with titanium plates and screws etc…

[Do you know or have heard of Uwe Salwender, based in O.C and L.A. he used to make amazing amps and guitars for the big acts of the 80 and early 90’s. He used to do a lot studio work for mixing and had won tons of awards. He still has some sneaky and amazing ideas for amps?] Very big on valve amps…

I have to admit overall this IS a highly unusual situation… but RED is anything but “usual”.

E

 

[Robert Jackson]

Great stuff (thanks for sharing)… I have similar stories and injuries (actually)…(ALL kinds of thing I don’t or won’t share on REDUSER…but in my case it’s horses not motor cycles, when I saw that X ray I thought it was my own right arm (for a moment) with titanium plates and screws etc…

[Do you know or have heard of Uwe Salwender, based in O.C and L.A. he used to make amazing amps and guitars for the big acts of the 80 and early 90’s. He used to do a lot studio work for mixing and had won tons of awards. He still has some sneaky and amazing ideas for amps?] Very big on valve amps…

I have to admit overall this IS a highly unusual situation… but RED is anything but “usual”.

E

Never heard of Uwe, but I haven't lived in SoCal since the mid-80's, so that may have something to do with it. Now I've heard of Uwe Boll, but that's another animal entirely (or one would hope). ;-)

 

[Felix K.]

Still upset.