Upgrade Lock Out

[Jay A. Kelley]

It's possible this has already been thought of.. And the following suggestion can only apply to Epics. But here is goes:

I know RED keeps a list of stolen serial numbers in it's database. I was wondering if, when a camera is marked stolen, the number could be added to RED's internal database, and then that could be included in the firmware upgrades.

On the "less aggressive" side, if the update matches a camera with a stolen serial number during the upgrade, the software simply tells the owner that the serial number is marked stolen and they need to contact RED customer service to get the situation cleared up. they cannot upgrade until the number is removed from the list.

On the "more aggressive" side, if the upgrade hits on a stolen serial number, then it locks out the camera until a password or something from RED allows it to proceed. (This could be a liability problem)

For Rental Houses: A set / reset password could be a cool item. In other words, before a rental the rental house agent inputs a code into the epic which will allow it to work for 60 days. After 60 days if it's not reset, the camera just shuts down.

The Set / Reset password is a very nice idea to help protect the cameras, and I'd like to think it would not be TOO hard to do (Of course at this stage, everything is hard)

Jay

 

[Elsie N]

The idea of a firmware based password set/reset would be a good thing for every owner to have. Then it would take a hacker to get the camera working again if stolen. Like automobile keypads, there could be a master password at RED HQ in case someone forgot their password. (like anyone ever does that.)

There would still be crimes of opportunity, but at least the cameras would be less of a targeted item.

 

[JPA]

Hi jay,

i just checked your red dvd website and it sounds great, but if i am interested in the epic, would be the red dvd useful for me?

cheers,
JP

 

[Chris Pickle]

It's possible this has already been thought of.. And the following suggestion can only apply to Epics. But here is goes:

I know RED keeps a list of stolen serial numbers in it's database. I was wondering if, when a camera is marked stolen, the number could be added to RED's internal database, and then that could be included in the firmware upgrades.

On the "less aggressive" side, if the update matches a camera with a stolen serial number during the upgrade, the software simply tells the owner that the serial number is marked stolen and they need to contact RED customer service to get the situation cleared up. they cannot upgrade until the number is removed from the list.

On the "more aggressive" side, if the upgrade hits on a stolen serial number, then it locks out the camera until a password or something from RED allows it to proceed. (This could be a liability problem)

For Rental Houses: A set / reset password could be a cool item. In other words, before a rental the rental house agent inputs a code into the epic which will allow it to work for 60 days. After 60 days if it's not reset, the camera just shuts down.

The Set / Reset password is a very nice idea to help protect the cameras, and I'd like to think it would not be TOO hard to do (Of course at this stage, everything is hard)

Jay

The first time that the "lock out" made a mistake and stopped a production, especially one, say far away in a jungle, someone's head would explode. Can you imagine the look on a producer's face when the camera teams tells him or her the camera stopped working because it was accidentally listed as stolen.


Theft sucks big time... but ugg.

 

[Elsie N]

The first time that the "lock out" made a mistake and stopped a production, especially one, say far away in a jungle, someone's head would explode. Can you imagine the look on a producer's face when the camera teams tells him or her the camera stopped working because it was accidentally listed as stolen.


Theft sucks big time... but ugg.

Yeah, I agree with this and I think Jay addressed something similar as well. But if the camera asked for a password every x amount of days/months, then the onus is on the operator to enter the password.

edit: of course there is no keyboard on camera, so the password could be stored in the SD card that comes with the camera and the firmware could ask for that card to be mounted and activate the camera. The password would of course be camera specific and could be changed from the original one entered by RED at the factory.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I have to agree with Chris. Any restriction or access procedure that could potentially interfere or cause a problem at an inopportune moment would be a bad idea, IMO. The relatively few cameras stolen do not justify such means. Additionally, no one can download camera firmware without a RED support account anyway. So a common thief who does not have access to other RED cameras will have a tough time updating the camera. Once the camera is marked as stolen by RED, it can't be upgraded, serviced, traded, etc..

Resale value on stolen RED Ones has got to be near nothing as it is... People grab them because it's a crime of opportunity. Firmware security features are not going to do anything to thwart this. When someone is in possession of a stolen RED, they will most likely circulate it with other stolen electronics and camera equipment to places in the middle east, south america, etc.. which are current hotbeds for this sort of stolen equipment. Many of these markets / groups, have competent hackers and technical people who could thwart most any type of security procedure, especially if there's a master or factory reset. They will most likely have access to firmware through some channel...

 

[Robert Frank]

I have a lot of software that uses a USB iLok dongle. Perhaps something like it that would be required to boot up the camera *if* the owner of the camera desires?

As far as the iLok dongle thing I get pretty nervous at times if I think about how much $$$ I have spent on software that is dependent on a $30 dongle.

So perhaps a failsafe way to get your camera password from your own RED account as a backup if you loose the dongle/key. This would also allow you to change the password too. None of this would help though if the dongle/key is stolen along with the camera and isn't time-bombed.

BTW, I'm actually thinking of possibilities for Epic security here.

 

[Brian F Kobylarz]

A simple, elegant solution: Embedded Serial Number

A simple, elegant solution: Embedded Serial Number

No need to lock out the camera. Just embed the serial number in every single frame. That will provide a trail of bread crumbs to any stolen camera - making the footage captured with any stolen camera a liability to a would be thief. Knowing that at any time, a single frame checked in a post house could lead to your arrest - now that is a deterrent!

There are other benefits as well: For every legitimate owner - especially those that own or will own multiple cameras, how better to track which camera was used on which day - or which angle on a multi-cam shoot?
Along the same lines - on 3D shoots, if you keep the same camera as the same eye on the sled, sorting the footage in post is a tad closer to idiot proof.

And - think of it as possible tracking / fingerprinting for copyright verification...

Give it just another second or two, and more benefits come to mind...

 

[Elsie N]

... that would be required to boot up the camera *if* the owner of the camera desires?

I think this is the key point to all this. Make it an option.

 

[Noah Kadner]

On the other hand Apple's Mobile Me can not only find your iPhone remotely, it can also send messages, be locked down with a password or even be completely erased. Now of course the RED doesn't have a data connection which would make this sort of functionality simpler to implement- but future versions could...

Noah

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

On the other hand Apple's Mobile Me can not only find your iPhone remotely, it can also send messages, be locked down with a password or even be completely erased. Now of course the RED doesn't have a data connection which would make this sort of functionality simpler to implement- but future versions could...

And all that requires the phone to be turned on and connected to an appropriate wireless carrier. Seriously, most phone thieves get around this almost instantly. In the case of the iPhone, they just power it off ASAP and then pull the SIM card before they power it back on. Most phone thieves are not after the phone itself, they are after smart phones for information they may find in your email accounts and contacts.

The remote lockdown of the iphone is handy when you lose it, but it's pretty much worthless if the phone is stolen by a knowledgeable thief.

Anyway, I guess what I'm saying is that in this discussion here and all the like discussions before it, I have yet to see any solution that would actually work and be infallible at the same time. Oh, and camera ID information is embedded in the R3D files. I don't know if it's in every frame, but it is there in multiple places. And yet, once again, anyone with a hex editor and rudimentary hacking knowledge can always alter that...

Cameras and equipment are going to get stolen. It's just a fact of life. It's important to be as thorough as possible in checking up on people who rent and use your camera. It's also equally important to make sure you have good insurance coverage because sooner or later you are going to need it... If not for theft, then to cover damage or other issues that may come up.

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

I like Elsie's take on this.. Make it an option the owner can turn on or off.

Jay

 

[Scott Crawley]

While Jeff has a point, I would suggest that no form of security is infallible, and all security is therefore relative. In addition Jeff,
your initial argument against is that most theft is a crime of opportunity, then you seem to contradict yourself when you say measure X is ineffective because a practiced thief can circumvent it.

I agree that most theft is born out of opportunity and as such, moderately sophisticated security methods should be adequate enough to provide security.

Then again, the best security is free and in a sense no tech; keep a pair of eyes on the gear. (pun intended)

Gunnery Sergeant Hartman: [after discovering Private Pyle's unlocked footlocker] Jesus H Christ. Private Pyle, why is your footlocker unlocked?
Private Gomer Pyle: Sir, I don't know, sir.
Gunnery Sergeant Hartman: Private Pyle, if there is one thing in this world that I hate, it is an unlocked footlocker! You know that don't you?
Private Gomer Pyle: Sir, yes, sir.
Gunnery Sergeant Hartman: If it wasn't for dickheads like you, there wouldn't be any thievery in this world, would there?
Private Gomer Pyle: Sir, no, sir.

 

[Robert Frank]

...be required to boot up the camera *if* the owner of the camera desires?

I think this is the key point to all this. Make it an option.

I like Elsie's take on this.. Make it an option the owner can turn on or off.

Uh, yeah, me too. :001_huh: hehe

 

[Elsie N]

Uh, yeah, me too. :001_huh: hehe

Sorry Robert. That's on me... should have started my comments with "As Robert suggested..."

 

[Robert Frank]

Sorry Robert. That's on me... should have started my comments with "As Robert suggested..."

No worries, I'm just playing a little.:wink:

The way I see it the collective thinking and problem solving is what REDuser is all about.

 

[Elsie N]

No worries, I'm just playing a little.:wink:

The way I see it the collective thinking and problem solving is what REDuser is all about.

:cheers2:

 

[Jarred Land]

I have a lot of software that uses a USB iLok dongle.

I hate security dongles with a passion. I really can't tell you enough how much they piss me off.

The last product I ever bought that required a dongle was EDIUS about 8 years ago.. and it drove me mad. Canopus lost me as a customer for life because of it.

RED will never require you to use a dongle. I promise. :banghead:

 

[Scott Crawley]

I hate security dongles with a passion. I really can't tell you enough how much they piss me off.

The last product I ever bought that required a dongle was EDIUS about 8 years ago.. and it drove me mad. Canopus lost me as a customer for life because of it.

RED will never require you to use a dongle. I promise. :banghead:

I'm with you on that score 100%. iLok sucks! Thanks.

 

[Robert Frank]

I hate security dongles with a passion.

I'm with you on that score 100%. iLok sucks! Thanks.

I wasn't suggesting requiring a dongle. And trust me on this one, I HATE iLok too.

If at all possible I'll avoid software that requires an iLok. Some companies let you choose between iLok and challenge/response authorization.

As far as the iLok dongle thing I get pretty nervous at times if I think about how much $$$ I have spent on software that is dependent on a $30 dongle.

I was just throwing a thought out there with regards to possibilities hoping it might spark some ideas relevant to camera security and theft deterrence.