Underwater housing

[Rui Guerra]

Hi all,

I'm in the market to buy a new video pro system, probably a Weapon or Scarlet-W, so maybe someone is / was in the same process and can provide some useful feedback.

I need the camera to work in my own production (diver controlled camera) but also to work in commercial productions, where director / DOP usually wants monitor feed and some camera control (so ability to run cables to the surface are important).

Right now I'm considering Nauticam vs Amphibico vs Gates choices. I'm already in concat with all these brands, but I would like to have some feedback from field use of experienced users.

- I know about the reputation and high quality of Gates housings. On the down side, is the price and weight / dimensions, not very friendly to travel or record in more inaccessible sites (and bigger then needed considering the smaller new DSMC2).
- Nauticam seems the most compact choice. Anyone knows about reliability of this housings with Red cameras?. Any problems regarding camera overheating in warm water pools?
- Amphibico are mostly electronic controlled (with the good and bad things) and I'm a bit worried about buying a housing from a brand that previously almost desepeared before it was bought by Aquatica. Also somehow big and heavy.

Any advices?

About the DSMC and DSMC2 different sizes, does any one can provide the exact dimensions of the brain on an EPIC Dragon (I already have the dimensions of a Weapon).

Regarding battery life, that is very important while recording underwater, can someone provide some information about how long can one record with a Redbrick? How does this time compares with the one provided by Pagpink batteries, for exemple?

A last question, that probably shouldn't be post in this RED oriented forum: how does a Sacrlet-W / Weapon compares to an ARRI Mini Alexa camera? I'm asking this because at least in Europe productions demand more ARRI then RED, so not sure if the choice of a RED will be the right one if I want to rentabilize the camera in those works also...

Thanks for any help. Any comments are wellcome

Cheers,
Rui Guerra

 

[Russ Fill]

I have used the Gates for the Epic and now it has been updated to use the Weapon in it. That is a statement to Gates that they are updating and continue to move forward with their housings on the tech front.
I know its big and heavy but it does exactly what you need in the water and I haven't had any issues with warmer water dives using the Gates. The recent update I was made aware of by just emailing Gates and they got back to me in less than 24 hours about where they were on that so maybe that is a statement for their customer service.
I have used the Amphibico that was made for Sony Beta cam type of cameras. There are very different beast, but when I have a choice I would always go with the Gates when using the Epic or Weapon. Or other cameras but that choice has come from years of using both brands.
I hope this helps.
Good luck on your search.

 

[Kip Evans]

First and foremost contact Backscatter in Monterey CA for advice too. They have a great team: http://www.backscatter.com

Gates vs. Nauticam vs. Amphibico - I have much more experience with Gates and Nauticam, so I will let others comment on Amphibico:

Gates is more expensive and a bit heavier, but the build quality, customer support, and underwater handling make them a top choice. While a bit larger and heavier, their housings are really stable in the water, which will help you shoot smoother footage. I would feel very confident about their products. Check-out their Deep Scarlett housing: http://www.backscatter.com/sku/gt-90-10-502.lasso?s2op=cn&s2=pro%20video&s6op=cn&s6=video&sop=&sf=Price&so=Descending&ftn=youbetcha& Nice size and price point.

Nauticam - Beautifully machined with well though-out controls and a price point that's seems to be a sweet spot. I own a Nauticam housing for my Canon 1DX and it's a rockstar. No issues after 150 + dives. I recently saw some great looking Nauticam RED housings at Backscatter that are very compact: http://www.backscatter.com/sku/na-1...eo&sop=&sf=Price&so=Descending&ftn=youbetcha&

I haven't had any heat issues, but don't shoot in pools much. You can let the fan blast away since audio isn't much of an issue.

Plan on spending a considerable amount of time setting up any of these housings for your first dive - several hours.

You will need to spend at least another $5,000 - $7,000 + on lights, accessories, and ports.

 

[Tom Hamilton]

Epic Dragon generates an enormous amount of heat, even more so with the mini SSD's, so my advice is choose a housing with ample 'headroom', i.e. enough air circulation/heat exchange that keeps not only the camera, but the battery, well within temperature limits, not as robust as the manufacturers would lead you to believe. The results can be otherwise painful. Ask me how I know this

This presupposes a very high quality battery, PAGlinks are super solid in this regard. Your post suggests operating for extended lengths in warm water, if you'd like the actual operating temperatures as recorded in an enclosed housing, mapped over a three hour period, and how close they come to protection shutdown, I can provide you with that. Edge of envelope, but do-able.

Not familiar with Weapon.

 

[Rui Guerra]

Hi all,

Thanks for the answers so far.

Russ:
Yes, no doubt that GATES leads the market in every aspect. Is very helpful to know that an experienced user like you will choose Gates at the end of the day. Pamela have been very helpful too answering all my questions also (although Amphibico and Nauticam have been also excellent in that regard).

Kip: I've not asked advice to Backscatter, because been in Portugal I cannot buy from them, so I'll not like to give them work for nothing ;-) I'll check the Scarlet Gates housing, but I think that's not in production anymore.
No doubt that the compact size and less weight of the Nauticam is VERY tempting, even more when I thing about remote places, travel by air, free diving, shore diving, etc.
Yes, I know that the first time will be a long preparation, but that will be a pleasure for me and not a problem because I have more then 20 years experience in housings for underwater photography ;-)
Regarding lights, I already have and use them in my current DSLR setup ( 2 x SOLA 8000 PRO + 2 x SOLA 4000).

Tom:
Since the smaller housing is the Nauticam, I've asked them that and the answer was:

quote:
"I've done hours of thermal testing with the system in a controlled environment, and have lots of data to fall back on. The Weapon is actually EXTREMELY good at cooling the sensor and thermal core, much better than previous RED cameras, with a much lower default operating temperature of 39c at the sensor. Based on my tests no underwater housing (I have a few to test ) can hold that 39C default operating temperature in 28C water. With this in mind, we are recommending a 46C sensor calibration and 46C operating temperature target in adaptive mode in the housing.

After 90 minutes of continuos recording at the Forged Weapon maximum data rate in the 28C water bath the LT housing was still far away from its thermal shutdown point. The larger aluminum housing I tested had a sensor temp that was a couple of degrees cooler, but neither one were at risk of overheating.

The biggest point of advice I can offer is that in ANY housing, you'll need to run the camera a bit hotter than default. The camera's cooling fans will be able to regulate the temp, though. This is covered at length in REDucation courses, or you are always welcome to come to South Florida for a crash course.

Epic LT has no thermal issues with the Epic Dragon camera, and can maintain the default core temp without issue. Weapon produces more heat, but also has a much better cooling system."

end quote.

Since I have no reason to doubt this tests, it looks like that inside a housing one should always rise the operational temperature of any RED. Do you confirm that? Can you tell me more about your "painful" results regarding overheating problem, so I can understand better the problems? Thanks!
PAGlinks are in my list of purchases. BTW, do you think they are better then the REDbricks? Are PAGlinks more or less expensive then REDbrickis? Other advantages/disavantages?

In the productions I've worked so far, many times I must be for hours in the water filming (although sometimes I have some short breaks when actors are changing closes or stuff like that) but in the closed, hot and high humidity environment of an indoor pool, opening the housing is not the best option (besides it will be for just 5 minutes or so...)
Cab you tell me more about that temperature data mapped inside the housing? Do you already have that done (if so, can you send it to me?) or it's a service that you can do if I need it?


One more question to all: do you think there is a real need to use cinema lens underwater? I mean, since we have domeport characteristics and positioning, water clarity, distance, and so on, does the investment and cinema lens brings any real improvement or regular Nikon/Canon DSLR lens will provide exactly the same image quality? What do you use?


Thanks to all for the so far get feedback!

Cheers,

 

[Tom Hamilton]

Hi Rui, as mentioned, I am not familiar with Weapon, but it appears from Ryan's testing above that Red has equipped it with a very robust cooling system.

Paglinks have a thermal cutoff of 70C, (one of the highest ratings for this type of battery), temperature reached by the battery core will depend on ambient temperature and discharge current. Since the thermal sensor is attached internally to the cell pack, there should be some thermal lag between housing ambient and battery core. After about ten minutes, Epic core temp indicates about 65C (fan in adaptive mode, sensor at 45), this is heat that must be dissipated within the confines of an enclosed housing. Based on this alone, an aluminum housing with good heat transference characteristics is certainly indicated. Even though the anodization and paint process degrades heat exchange capability to a certain degree, it will certainly perform better than the various PVC options out there. Where reliability is concerned, i.e. batteries that have even slightly lower cutoff temperatures (or, like the 787, catch fire , these numbers also indicate the best battery that money can buy, I believe the PAGs qualify for that description.

I've no doubt the Red bricks are also high quality units, but one of the biggest advantages in favor of the PAGlinks is the ability to stack them, as many as you can fit in your housing. The bigger your housing, the more you can fit. The PAGs are 96Wh (787 friendly), a three-hour run time is easily achievable using two of them.

As far as uw lens choice goes, really depends on subject, available light, water conditions, DP preference, etc etc, a very big can of worms you're opening there, discussed variously and at length here;

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?87443-The-Gentleman-s-Underwater-Bubble-Blower-Thread

Hope this helps,

Tom

 

[Joshua VP]

What did you end up going with? You happy? I've used Naticam's housing for a canon 1dx and loved it... Since, I've upgraded my camera to the weapon and have a big project coming up in a humid environment, wondering what the best solution is going forward. As for the project - I won't be diving past 10 feet and mainly in salt water flats.. So a surf housing using like SPL may be my approach.. I'd also rent if possible, considering, shooting in water isn't my full time job, but I just worry about something like this being misshandled/abused/not properly cleaned by the previous renters and I don't want to take any chances with a weapon in salt water...

Thanks,

 

[Rui Guerra]

What did you end up going with? You happy? I've used Naticam's housing for a canon 1dx and loved it... Since, I've upgraded my camera to the weapon and have a big project coming up in a humid environment, wondering what the best solution is going forward. As for the project - I won't be diving past 10 feet and mainly in salt water flats.. So a surf housing using like SPL may be my approach.. I'd also rent if possible, considering, shooting in water isn't my full time job, but I just worry about something like this being misshandled/abused/not properly cleaned by the previous renters and I don't want to take any chances with a weapon in salt water...

Thanks,

I Joshua,

I went with a Nauticam LT and I'm VERY happy with it. Have used it extensively in several productions over the last year, in several different conditions (underwater caves, sea, pools, rivers, surf...) and have never had a problem. Where and when is your project? PM me if you do not want to take the risk and maybe I can do the underwater shooting for you, if you think that may be an option to consider.

Cheers,