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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Underwater Bubble Blowin' Users Group

Hi Jon,
I am not sure if I totally understand your question. Are you asking what kind of underwater housings are currently available for the Red camera? Or is it domes that you are looking for? If it is a housing, Aquavideo has one out right now. Others are in the works but the Aquavideo is the only one I know of that has actually been tested with the Red camera. However, Aqua would be better suited to address if one if available- since your shoot is in a week.
I am not sure if that gets to your question. Good luck with your production.
 
My question goes more into, what dome could I be using or adaptate for the red camera?. From the already existent. Because I have to get one an try to adaptate for the RED, since there is not yet any. Maybe some of you guys that have got a similar problem the first time you use a camera can chim up.
Since is a low budget short we can be buying or renting from the USA so I have to adapt an existing one in Spain.
Jon Corcuera
 
Jon:

The Red is quite a bit different from other cameras so it may be difficult to adapt to another housing quickly. On the other hand, since you are shooting RAW you don't need much in the way of controls so if it fits in another housing you are good.

I think the "fishbowl" refers to the pretty scary practice of putting a camera into an aquarium-like box (open at the top) for shooting downward into a pool or shallow water.

We have a suitable full underwater housing here already completed that has been used on several rentals (typically $550/day) but I understand that may not be feasible for your shoot.
 
AquaVideoRed206 said:
I'm up for investigating the Fathom option. It would be helpful if you can post a picture of the back/bayonet end of the fathom port and maybe an approximate measurement of the rear size.
Click to expand...

Mike (Mark),

If you can get the RED 18-50 hood off (I gather it unscrews) it should work :biggrin: most probably end up being a variable fixed focus ...
Make it so you can 'drop-in' an ND in between and you should be good to go Mark ...

Keep us posted ...
 
SWP44 details

SWP44 details

Mike,
a couple of images attached of a unit i tried to purchase a while back (missed my chance) ... I'll leave Mark to let you know dimensions.
Cheers
 
But 18-50mm front extends.

But 18-50mm front extends.

h2opixels said:
Mike (Mark),

If you can get the RED 18-50 hood off (I gather it unscrews) it should work :biggrin: most probably end up being a variable fixed focus ...
Make it so you can 'drop-in' an ND in between and you should be good to go Mark ...

Keep us posted ...
Click to expand...

It is an extension zoom, I don't have one myself but if I remember right the RED 18-50 extends an inch or so, unlike typical video zooms for which the fathom was designed (like the Z1). Seems like you would probably have to lock it at the wide position, get it close to the Fathom, and then not be able to zoom or it would physically hit the back of the Fathom optics. Not necessarily a deal killer, but reduced utility.

From your pictures of the Fathom, both the optic and the bayonet are pretty deep so going to take a fairly heavy and deep ring on the front plate. David, if it works with the 18-50, I think it is going to be borderline practical and only make sense if you already have one. trying to make it work is more of a curiosity to me.
 
h2opixels said:
BUM ...

DOUBLE BUM ... :waaa:
Click to expand...

As I said in an earlier post - there's a reason I keep praying to the Birger gods. It ain't fanboy-love. A working Birger mount really would make underwater life a LOT easier/cheaper. And it's not just us - I'm pretty sure GATES is all over it too.

BTW I posted on other thread: Spoke to Erik this morning. He said he would have the first 10 done next week and volume shipping the following week. As a BETA tester, that also let Erik use my camera for several weeks, I think I'm in that first batch so will post comments, pics, as soon as I get it.
 
The RED Drives are awesome. They exceeded all my field testing this week. Open seas on a RIB boat, multiple booting, data transfers, reformatting...Blah, blah, blah.

Nice work RED Team
 
RED and Fathom ports

RED and Fathom ports

Greetings to all,

Some comments on the use of a Super Wide port with RED:

* The Super Wide (Fathom) port is a converter optic that retains full zoom through. The wide angle image is 100-120 degrees FOV rectilinear. Distortion is virtually nonexistent. Depth of field is *very* large. This performance is only achieved by designing and testing for compatibility with specific cameras.

* Gates current Super Wide ports are for optics in cameras like the Z1, HVX200, EX1, etc. RED lenses are different. While compatibility with RED lenses is unlikely we will examine some candidates carefully and hope for a combination that meets Gates standard of image quality.

* Domes, by comparison, have tradeoffs. The optical physics of a dome underwater means inherent corner distortions as FOV and chip size increases. Depth of field is narrower, and there is little or no zoom through capability. It's essentially a wide angle-only option. But domes are inexpensive, readily adaptable and field replaceable.

* DEEP RED port options will include a Dome port (like every Gates housing) and Flat (macro) port with provisions to place them at the optimal position for a given RED/Canon/Nikon lens. A Super Wide port is planned as well, even if a new design supporting a specific lens (like the RED 18-50) is required.

J-
 
GATES said:
Greetings to all,

Some comments on the use of a Super Wide port with RED:

* The Super Wide (Fathom) port is a converter optic that retains full zoom through. The wide angle image is 100-120 degrees FOV rectilinear. Distortion is virtually nonexistent. Depth of field is *very* large. This performance is only achieved by designing and testing for compatibility with specific cameras.

* Gates current Super Wide ports are for optics in cameras like the Z1, HVX200, EX1, etc. RED lenses are different. While compatibility with RED lenses is unlikely we will examine some candidates carefully and hope for a combination that meets Gates standard of image quality.
Click to expand...

On the other hand Fathom optic have very poor contrast, flare easily and show considerable CA. I wouldn't present them as anything superior to a dome port. I seriously doubt any benefit of shooting 4k with Fathom as I am yet to see any evidence of being able to perform well even at 2k. Amphibicam comes to mind.

The one significant shortcoming of a dome: curvature of image field, can be controlled by the relative size of the dome and by stepping down.

Domes also don't have significant distortions. But, can be only used with fixed focal-length lens as the entrance pupil changes position while zooming.

If you are aiming at Gates housing supporting Red wide zoom (18-50) through a dome, how would you control the correct entrance pupil position?

Considering Gates housings are mechanical, how would you accomodate for camera position change to allow other lenses?

And what is the size of the dome going to be?

Pawel
www.achtel.com
 
Well stated Pawel....... Gates makes great housings but they have always seemed to fall short when it comes to optics IMHO.
 
cinepost35 said:
Well stated Pawel....... Gates makes great housings but they have always seemed to fall short when it comes to optics IMHO.
Click to expand...

I think it is a general problem, not just Gates. Fathom is used by both Amphibico and Gates and, frankly, it sucks. The contrast loss is simply not acceptable for any serious work and flare is more akin to a kaleidoscope than a professional lens.

Having said that, it is very difficult to adapt a wide angle terrestial lens for underwater. It takes many compromises and optimisations.

At the end of the day, it largely depends what is that you are willing to sacrifice:

  • MTF
  • CA
  • Distortions
  • Resolution
  • Flatness of image plane (corners out of focus)
  • Zoom through capability
  • Angle of view
  • Usable aperture range
  • Lens interchangability
  • Size
  • Cost

You need to sacrifice several of the above, there is no silver bullet. And, the sacrifices are quite severe - more severe than most people think.

For example, Howard Halls's Coral Sea Adventure has corner resolution LOWER than a VHS on wide u/w shots, even though it was shot in IMAX format. You would actually get better result shooting on 2/3" or 1/2" HD chip, not because of the recording format, but because small dome does not work well on large image plane of 70mm film. But...people (specially the executive types) still call it IMAX.

I am currently settling to use 14mm Zeiss Master Prime and no other lens for wide angle. It would also work in VERY limited aperture range. I believe this is as wide as one can go underwater without severely bastardizing the image :ranting2: .

Pawel
www.achtel.com
 
The Fathoms SWP44 was good enough for the BBC throughout their blue chip productions Blue Planet and Planet Earth. It was also good enough for Doug Allan in Tonga whilst filming Humpbacks. I've had zero reason to question the performance of mine throughout the two years I have used it.

Cheers,
Mark.
 
Pawel Achtel said:
Considering Gates housings are mechanical, how would you accomodate for camera position change to allow other lenses?

Pawel
www.achtel.com
Click to expand...
As far as I can figure that one out I think it was mentioned that the core housing will be developed around the Canon EF-S10-22mm with the Birger mount. There may also be a system designed around the RED lenses but no confirmation. For all other lens usage the shooter would have to purchase a shim designed specifically for that lens. The Dome would fit on the end via a universal fitting for the housing and shims. Pretty similar to the SUBAL DSLR housings when the user wants to go from a wide to macro setting.

Cheers,
Mark.
P.S John, feel free to jump in here.
 
For example, Howard Halls's Coral Sea Adventure has corner resolution LOWER than a VHS on wide u/w shots, even though it was shot in IMAX format. You would actually get better result shooting on 2/3" or 1/2" HD chip, not because of the recording format, but because small dome does not work well on large image plane of 70mm film. But...people (specially the executive types) still call it IMAX.

Pawel
www.achtel.com
Click to expand...
[/QUOTE]

The new 3D IMAX film "Wild Ocean" all the underwater sequences I understand were shot in Digital 2/3" to SR in 3D. I saw it in London recentely and it looked amazing. Not sure what the final process was by the DP but the film fills the frame unlike the trailer and whatever process they used to film out to IMAX looked like it was shot on IMAX. It was a great film too.

www.wildoceanfilm.com
 
it would be nice if Gates made it more adaptable to more lenses. You just pay for the version you want. Berger/Nikon, Arri, Cooke, or Fathom whatever you fancy and/or is acceptable to that users creative or budget. I'm guesing the few folks that are using more expensive glass will have such specific needs they will probably just want custom housings anyway and not something off the shelf. Not that there is anything wrong with that.
 
lenses

lenses

Seems like there are some brighter folk on this forum re lens and dome performance than I am so I'll only add a frame grab from a recent 8R lens shoot as an example. I would guess that the Birger with the Canon 10-22 is going to be a great solution for many of us.

If going PL primes the Zeiss/Arri 8 - 18mm lenses are proven work horses UW. I have shot them all. The 8R is by far my favorite. This lens, behind an Aquatica 8" dome on an Aquavideo housing, enabled me to get an underwater RED 4K sequence of 8 humpback whales during a courtship event. Pretty unbelievable. I have attached a low rez frame grab.

If you look closely there are 6 males in the frame grab taken from the beginning of the shot. The entire sequence is made possible by the 8R lens and Mike Hasting's incredible help in getting the housing ready for the trip.

BTW - this is an ungraded frame grab straight out of RED ALERT - no color correction etc. The graded stuff played in proress 422 is SWEET...
 
Just for my Mates

Just for my Mates

These photos I post for my mates Mark (Camdiver) and Baja Johnny. They really hate my wetsuit so I thought I'd rub it in with the UW 4K camera system working the humpback whales. The whales seemed to like my suit guys :-)
 
The Kit

The Kit

Rather simple, light weight and painless set up for underwater field recording in 4K and backing up. I used an Apple lap top with dual Western Digital 1 terrabyte drives to back up the RED drive footage then LTO 4 at the studio to archive the footage.

The RED LCD, RED battery and RED drive all fit in the prototype Aquavideo housing with an Arri 8R lens behind an 8" dome.



Extra camera body is a safety back up.
 
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