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Mark Thorpe
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Great News - plus I broke 500!!
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Be a part of something great, join today!
Underwater Bubble Blowin' Users Group
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Russ Campbell
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Thanks for the update Mike. I would love to buy the Arri 8R, but the Birger mount and Canon lenses are more within our budget. Second Mark to make a synopsis of all the important stuff.:w00t:
Gisle K. Sverdrup
Member
Congrats on a great piece of glass, Ken! Hope to see some 4k stills to better evaluate the quality you´re getting. 
Does anyone know anything about differing port mounts on the housings (gates, aquavideo)? Would it be possible to make a mount for say nexus ports?
I have recently joined the red soon-to-be-owners, but sadly I won´t get mine until may/june. Until then it´s great to have a forum like this, where a lot of very skilled people give valuable input all the time. Thanks to you all for this!
Gisle
Does anyone know anything about differing port mounts on the housings (gates, aquavideo)? Would it be possible to make a mount for say nexus ports?
I have recently joined the red soon-to-be-owners, but sadly I won´t get mine until may/june. Until then it´s great to have a forum like this, where a lot of very skilled people give valuable input all the time. Thanks to you all for this!
Gisle
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Mark Thorpe
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RED Birger Mount
RED Birger Mount
OK so I'm a dumb ass. just wanting to use the Canon EF-S range of glass. I have taken a look at the Birger Mount details for ordering. Whats all the LEMO and cable stuff about? I thought the mount is just a mount to enable the use of Canon glass. Do we need all this LEMO stuff for housings etc?
"Long live the Noobian uprising"!
Cheers,
Mark.
RED Birger Mount
OK so I'm a dumb ass. just wanting to use the Canon EF-S range of glass. I have taken a look at the Birger Mount details for ordering. Whats all the LEMO and cable stuff about? I thought the mount is just a mount to enable the use of Canon glass. Do we need all this LEMO stuff for housings etc?
"Long live the Noobian uprising"!
Cheers,
Mark.
Babu Kantamneni
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It is for motors.You can focus, zoom and iris and even with blue tuth wireless.
You can send the camera down and sip on your coffee!
We know you like water to sand anytime.It is upto you.
have agood time in SA!
- Banned
- #506
Ken Corben
Banned
wide angle adapter
wide angle adapter
You saw the announcement by Birger that they will be at LART this weekend with a working Canon mount? Ketch Rossi and others are bringing a significant collection of Canon glass so the LART testing of this lens option for RED will be very revealing. Might want to take Birger up on their early reservation offer for the free blue tooth controller. Mike Hastings is all over this solution for his underwater housing design and will have some cool news for us in the near future. AND YES - we are testing the Canon 10-22 at LART.
Not silly but rather brilliant really. Gibby has tested and reviewed the RED-EYE (no affiliation) non-zoom through x.6 wide angle adaptor on HD cameras. We will add this to the LART lens test agenda on the RED 18-50. I will also test this underwater as well at the 18mm focal length. Damn good suggestion. They also make a x.4 wide angle adapter.
Inventors web site:
http://www.collinscraft.com/
Steve Gibby Studio Daily Red Eye Wide Angle Adaptor article:
http://www.studiodaily.com/studiomonthly/reviews/f/rproduction/7289.html
VF Gadgets Red Eye page:
http://www.vfgadgets.com/RedEye.htm
Red Eye web site:
http://www.red-eye.tv/
Another brilliant question. The RED 18-50 lens is a 72mm thread size. I will test the lens at the long end and see what we get especially in the CFWA mode. The underwater test will have to wait until after LART.
wide angle adapter
You saw the announcement by Birger that they will be at LART this weekend with a working Canon mount? Ketch Rossi and others are bringing a significant collection of Canon glass so the LART testing of this lens option for RED will be very revealing. Might want to take Birger up on their early reservation offer for the free blue tooth controller. Mike Hastings is all over this solution for his underwater housing design and will have some cool news for us in the near future. AND YES - we are testing the Canon 10-22 at LART.
Not silly but rather brilliant really. Gibby has tested and reviewed the RED-EYE (no affiliation) non-zoom through x.6 wide angle adaptor on HD cameras. We will add this to the LART lens test agenda on the RED 18-50. I will also test this underwater as well at the 18mm focal length. Damn good suggestion. They also make a x.4 wide angle adapter.
Inventors web site:
http://www.collinscraft.com/
Steve Gibby Studio Daily Red Eye Wide Angle Adaptor article:
http://www.studiodaily.com/studiomonthly/reviews/f/rproduction/7289.html
VF Gadgets Red Eye page:
http://www.vfgadgets.com/RedEye.htm
Red Eye web site:
http://www.red-eye.tv/
Another brilliant question. The RED 18-50 lens is a 72mm thread size. I will test the lens at the long end and see what we get especially in the CFWA mode. The underwater test will have to wait until after LART.
- Banned
- #507
Ken Corben
Banned
Congrats on a great piece of glass, Ken! Hope to see some 4k stills to better evaluate the quality you´re getting.
Thanks. I will post the results from the 8R testing. Mike Hastings is working overtime to build my first Aquavideo Pro Housing around this piece of glass. The investment is specifically targeted for obtaining images for an amazing one-hour special Gibby and I are producing in association with our new production partner. Can't say much more yet, but when you see the CFWA results and the subject matter I think everyone will be stoked (impressed).
Mike Hastings and I have spent countless cell phone minutes on this subject. Mike has posted extensively on the subject. Bottom line, he will give you his opinion and then build and deliver what ever your heart desires. I would heed his advice though.
Sharky
David Nardini
Well-known member
18-50 for underwater use
18-50 for underwater use
Sharkguy ... thanks for your update, much appreciated, especially the RED EYE info.
Yes, good to see Birger (Erik) finally post the order form. I've placed my order for the Canon mount and await confirmation & ideally some idea of a real delivery date. Really looking forward to the feedback from the LART session.
The 18-50 was a line of thinking for underwater usage 'just on case' Birger hits delays / another option.
Assuming the collimation of the 18-50, the RED EYE and the dome port can be kept in register, I'd love to see how they perform ;-)
If the RED EYE (or similar) could be swung in/out of place, it could provide quite a powerful one-lens solution for u/w footage ;-) .... IMHO
Cheers ... and looking forward to the next update ...
18-50 for underwater use
Sharkguy ... thanks for your update, much appreciated, especially the RED EYE info.
Yes, good to see Birger (Erik) finally post the order form. I've placed my order for the Canon mount and await confirmation & ideally some idea of a real delivery date. Really looking forward to the feedback from the LART session.
The 18-50 was a line of thinking for underwater usage 'just on case' Birger hits delays / another option.
Assuming the collimation of the 18-50, the RED EYE and the dome port can be kept in register, I'd love to see how they perform ;-)
If the RED EYE (or similar) could be swung in/out of place, it could provide quite a powerful one-lens solution for u/w footage ;-) .... IMHO
Cheers ... and looking forward to the next update ...
Michael Hastings
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More about birger - also using nexus, subal, etc. ports.
More about birger - also using nexus, subal, etc. ports.
Tthe other guys already answered some of this but I wrote this the other day and then my internet died. Still might be helpful
Mark:
The short answer is yes. The idea of the birger mount is that it is not just a physical mount, it is an electronic mount that simulates the camera body because all of the EF and EF-S lenses only have electronic iris - there is no manual ring to set iris on those lenses. The beauty of the birger is that once you create that electronic interface you can control both iris and focus using the internal motors and you don't have to worry about gears and in particular you don't have to have different gears for different lenses. The birger mount lets us control the iris and focus remotely similar to how we do it on broadcast video cameras where you have a cable to the lens (or in this case to the mount) and you can position the control knobs/pots wherever you want on the housing. Further, those control knobs are the same no matter what lens you use, so if you want to switch from the EF-S 10-22 to the EF 14 or to a macro lens you just change the lens.
One of the problems with still lenses for cine use (although not that important for U/W) is that still lenses have a very short focus throw i.e. the amount of turn to go from closest to infinity focus, whereas cine lenses have a very big turn therefore it is easier to be precise. The second great thing it does is because there are hundreds or even thousands of "steps" for the focus motor, birger can "map" that to a large turn on the focus knob (which has an electronic encoder in it) thus allowing cine-style focusing - and by the way when you buy the birger mount you are also buying a "follow focus" rig - which just means a separate knob that allows a second person to "pull" focus with out getting in the way of the main camera operator. Follow focus units are typically $800 to several thousand dollars.
Finally, the birger mount is a physical mount as well as an electronic mount. You can't use the old FD canon lenses because the "flange focal distance" - the distance from the flange to the film/sensor plane is shorter on the FDs. However, Nikon, Contax, leica-r etc. use a longer flange focal distance so - voila! you can use Nikkor, Zeiss, and many other lenses on Canon EOS (and therefore the birger mount) with simple mechanical adapters (about $30).
In other words you can use Nikon on Canon but you can't use Canon on Nikon. You don't get electronic control but all of the old Nikkors and even many of the new autofocus Nikkors have manual iris so you can use these lenses in manual mode. Again not that big a deal for us U/W but nice for abovewater stuff if you have a favorite Nikon or Zeiss lens you would like to use. (I just realized that one nice exception for underwater is that the Nikkor Fisheye 8mm is available in a PL mount conversion but is much cheaper in its original Nikon mount and you could use it with the Nikon/EOS adapter quite easily)
As far as the LEMO connectors you need them to attach to the camera and then from the mount to the knobs. One option is to use the knobs you get stock with the birger mount mounted in the housing, but it is probably nicer to get an extra set of encoder knobs. We are sorting that out with Erik at Birger, but I have suggested that people budget $250 or so for two extra cables and $600 or so for an extra set of encoder/knobs.
We may mount the knobs internally with a shaft through the housing wall or the alternative is to make a small box on the outside of the housing (which could be easily positioned according to user preference or even used as a follow focus by another diver) with a cable to the housing/mount. The simplest thing would be to have focus and iris in one box (since the encoders loop through one to the other) if people can live with iris and focus on the same side. That would be my preference but would like to hear feedback on that.
REGARDING DIFFERENT PORTS.
Because we are making our housing with the removable front plate it would be relatively easy to supply you with a frontplate with the port mount of your choice - Nexus, subal, aquatica, Ikelite etc. - the problem is that most of them have a relatively small opening - usually about 4". This is fine for most of the still lenses but won't work for most of the cine lenses - i.e. the RED 18-50 which is 4.5" DIA. or the Arri 8R or the Nikkor 8mm Fisheye which are even larger.
This is why I chose to use the older screw on style Aquatica ports. It has a much larger opening - close to 6". My basic concept for the "stock" housing was that the Birger mount with either the Canon 10-22 EF-S or the CanonEF 14mm would be the most common/most cost effective high quality lens solution - but I wanted to make it so that it would not require anything special to be able to use the Arri Ultraprime 8R that Ken is buying - which is probably the ultimate lens for underwater 4K.
I think the Canon stills are going be very high quality, but I also know that there are going to be jobs where they insist on using cine glass. I believe we have achieved that goal - the housings I am building right now allow you to use the Canon 10-22 or 14mm on birger mount, or with the PL mount you can use the RED 18-50, the Arri 8R, AND the 8mm Fisheye-Nikkor without any housing modification except the addition of a $100 extension ring when using the 8R (and you could use the 8R without the extension ring in a pinch). We have Aquatica macro flat ports available now and will probably build some flat ports of our own as well in the future.
Control of the canon still lenses would be through the Birger mount. With the Arri 8R or 8mm fisheye-nikkor you would just preset focus and we will supply with the "stock" housing a control that will allow you to adjust the iris.
At DEMA last month I spoke to the still housing manufacturers and we have access to any of the 8" or 9" glass domes from Aquatica, Subal, etc. however I am probably going to end up having the "stock" glass dome use an 8" dome that one of our local people had made by HOYA for a special still camera housing . He spent over $100K having them made and claims they are even better than the Aquatica and while I can't confirm that yet - I do know they are excellent.
More about birger - also using nexus, subal, etc. ports.
Tthe other guys already answered some of this but I wrote this the other day and then my internet died. Still might be helpful
Mark:
The short answer is yes. The idea of the birger mount is that it is not just a physical mount, it is an electronic mount that simulates the camera body because all of the EF and EF-S lenses only have electronic iris - there is no manual ring to set iris on those lenses. The beauty of the birger is that once you create that electronic interface you can control both iris and focus using the internal motors and you don't have to worry about gears and in particular you don't have to have different gears for different lenses. The birger mount lets us control the iris and focus remotely similar to how we do it on broadcast video cameras where you have a cable to the lens (or in this case to the mount) and you can position the control knobs/pots wherever you want on the housing. Further, those control knobs are the same no matter what lens you use, so if you want to switch from the EF-S 10-22 to the EF 14 or to a macro lens you just change the lens.
One of the problems with still lenses for cine use (although not that important for U/W) is that still lenses have a very short focus throw i.e. the amount of turn to go from closest to infinity focus, whereas cine lenses have a very big turn therefore it is easier to be precise. The second great thing it does is because there are hundreds or even thousands of "steps" for the focus motor, birger can "map" that to a large turn on the focus knob (which has an electronic encoder in it) thus allowing cine-style focusing - and by the way when you buy the birger mount you are also buying a "follow focus" rig - which just means a separate knob that allows a second person to "pull" focus with out getting in the way of the main camera operator. Follow focus units are typically $800 to several thousand dollars.
Finally, the birger mount is a physical mount as well as an electronic mount. You can't use the old FD canon lenses because the "flange focal distance" - the distance from the flange to the film/sensor plane is shorter on the FDs. However, Nikon, Contax, leica-r etc. use a longer flange focal distance so - voila! you can use Nikkor, Zeiss, and many other lenses on Canon EOS (and therefore the birger mount) with simple mechanical adapters (about $30).
In other words you can use Nikon on Canon but you can't use Canon on Nikon. You don't get electronic control but all of the old Nikkors and even many of the new autofocus Nikkors have manual iris so you can use these lenses in manual mode. Again not that big a deal for us U/W but nice for abovewater stuff if you have a favorite Nikon or Zeiss lens you would like to use. (I just realized that one nice exception for underwater is that the Nikkor Fisheye 8mm is available in a PL mount conversion but is much cheaper in its original Nikon mount and you could use it with the Nikon/EOS adapter quite easily)
As far as the LEMO connectors you need them to attach to the camera and then from the mount to the knobs. One option is to use the knobs you get stock with the birger mount mounted in the housing, but it is probably nicer to get an extra set of encoder knobs. We are sorting that out with Erik at Birger, but I have suggested that people budget $250 or so for two extra cables and $600 or so for an extra set of encoder/knobs.
We may mount the knobs internally with a shaft through the housing wall or the alternative is to make a small box on the outside of the housing (which could be easily positioned according to user preference or even used as a follow focus by another diver) with a cable to the housing/mount. The simplest thing would be to have focus and iris in one box (since the encoders loop through one to the other) if people can live with iris and focus on the same side. That would be my preference but would like to hear feedback on that.
REGARDING DIFFERENT PORTS.
Because we are making our housing with the removable front plate it would be relatively easy to supply you with a frontplate with the port mount of your choice - Nexus, subal, aquatica, Ikelite etc. - the problem is that most of them have a relatively small opening - usually about 4". This is fine for most of the still lenses but won't work for most of the cine lenses - i.e. the RED 18-50 which is 4.5" DIA. or the Arri 8R or the Nikkor 8mm Fisheye which are even larger.
This is why I chose to use the older screw on style Aquatica ports. It has a much larger opening - close to 6". My basic concept for the "stock" housing was that the Birger mount with either the Canon 10-22 EF-S or the CanonEF 14mm would be the most common/most cost effective high quality lens solution - but I wanted to make it so that it would not require anything special to be able to use the Arri Ultraprime 8R that Ken is buying - which is probably the ultimate lens for underwater 4K.
I think the Canon stills are going be very high quality, but I also know that there are going to be jobs where they insist on using cine glass. I believe we have achieved that goal - the housings I am building right now allow you to use the Canon 10-22 or 14mm on birger mount, or with the PL mount you can use the RED 18-50, the Arri 8R, AND the 8mm Fisheye-Nikkor without any housing modification except the addition of a $100 extension ring when using the 8R (and you could use the 8R without the extension ring in a pinch). We have Aquatica macro flat ports available now and will probably build some flat ports of our own as well in the future.
Control of the canon still lenses would be through the Birger mount. With the Arri 8R or 8mm fisheye-nikkor you would just preset focus and we will supply with the "stock" housing a control that will allow you to adjust the iris.
At DEMA last month I spoke to the still housing manufacturers and we have access to any of the 8" or 9" glass domes from Aquatica, Subal, etc. however I am probably going to end up having the "stock" glass dome use an 8" dome that one of our local people had made by HOYA for a special still camera housing . He spent over $100K having them made and claims they are even better than the Aquatica and while I can't confirm that yet - I do know they are excellent.
- Thread starter
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Mark Thorpe
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Mike,
You're a star. Thanks for that. Appreciate it.
Mark.
You're a star. Thanks for that. Appreciate it.
Mark.
David Nardini
Well-known member
u/w media option ...
u/w media option ...
Thanks for the info Mike ... like the Birger 'mapping' approach. I assume this is factory set and cannot be 'tweaked' ?
I might have missed these in the past, BUT, is the following new :
Nice to see it implemented as for the CF card module ... will go some way helping keep the u/w housing compact (+ less power required).
Price wise, the 32GB media seems very good value when compared to what is quoted here :
The RED FLASH DRIVE is still there (http://www.red.com/store/product_detail/74) and more costly ... no mention of capacity ? I wonder what is THE difference ?
Cheers ...
u/w media option ...
Thanks for the info Mike ... like the Birger 'mapping' approach. I assume this is factory set and cannot be 'tweaked' ?
I might have missed these in the past, BUT, is the following new :
- RED FLASH (SATA) Module (http://www.red.com/store/product_detail/17)
- Red 1.8" SATA Flash 32GB Media (http://www.red.com/store/product_detail/85)
Nice to see it implemented as for the CF card module ... will go some way helping keep the u/w housing compact (+ less power required).
Price wise, the 32GB media seems very good value when compared to what is quoted here :
The RED FLASH DRIVE is still there (http://www.red.com/store/product_detail/74) and more costly ... no mention of capacity ? I wonder what is THE difference ?
Cheers ...
- Banned
- #512
Ken Corben
Banned
Very cool stuff going on for us underwater RED users. John Ellerbrock of Gates housings attended LART on Saturday. It was fun to see a big smile on his face as he moved in and out of the various LART stations. Deep RED is gonna' be cool for sure.
I just received the Aquavideo external monitor housing from Mike with cabling and a new prototype splash housing for a major GibCor client shoot next week - way cool! Nice work Mike. The housing features use of the soon to be released 320 GB RED drive, custom Li ion batteries and the RED 18-50 lens. Specifically built for the clients' needs this is gonna' be way fun...stay tuned.
Also, I'll have resolution burst charts for the Arri 8R available in 4K for analysis for those interested later this week if I can pry the lens out of Mike's hands
We will also be testing the Canon glass solution with Birger mount this month for incorporation into the housing design option for the RED Pro housing from Aquavideo.
I just received the Aquavideo external monitor housing from Mike with cabling and a new prototype splash housing for a major GibCor client shoot next week - way cool! Nice work Mike. The housing features use of the soon to be released 320 GB RED drive, custom Li ion batteries and the RED 18-50 lens. Specifically built for the clients' needs this is gonna' be way fun...stay tuned.
Also, I'll have resolution burst charts for the Arri 8R available in 4K for analysis for those interested later this week if I can pry the lens out of Mike's hands
We will also be testing the Canon glass solution with Birger mount this month for incorporation into the housing design option for the RED Pro housing from Aquavideo.
Gisle K. Sverdrup
Member
Thanks a lot Mike and Ken!
That´s really good news for me. That would make it easy to use one set of domes for still lenses and then have the option to get the Aquatica ones for cine lenses if a client wants that. I´ve been in contact with the gates guys as well, and based on their reply and your I´m starting to lean seriously towards an Aquavideo RED.
Gisle
That´s really good news for me. That would make it easy to use one set of domes for still lenses and then have the option to get the Aquatica ones for cine lenses if a client wants that. I´ve been in contact with the gates guys as well, and based on their reply and your I´m starting to lean seriously towards an Aquavideo RED.
Gisle
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Mark Thorpe
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Looking good
Looking good
Crappy weather at the moment, hence the mucking around with images but it should soon clear. Can't wait to see what gives in 4k with these cuties.
Cheers,
Mark.
Looking good
Crappy weather at the moment, hence the mucking around with images but it should soon clear. Can't wait to see what gives in 4k with these cuties.
Cheers,
Mark.
Babu Kantamneni
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Hi mark,Crappy weather at the moment, hence the mucking around with images but it should soon clear. Can't wait to see what gives in 4k with these cuties.
Cheers,
Mark.
I was about to go to sleep here.With this image nightmare galore!!!
- Banned
- #516
Ken Corben
Banned
RED DRIVE is absolutely perfect for UW shooting...
- Banned
- #517
Ken Corben
Banned
Just shot some fabulous UW 4K footage for a client using the RED 18-50mm lens - way cool!
Special thanks to Mike at Aquavideo for building a specialty housing for the shoot. Housing features RED LCD mounted internally and yes that is the RED drive being used in the housing. It fit perfectly in the housing.
Sharky
Special thanks to Mike at Aquavideo for building a specialty housing for the shoot. Housing features RED LCD mounted internally and yes that is the RED drive being used in the housing. It fit perfectly in the housing.
Sharky
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Mark Thorpe
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Looking good Ken.
Mike, could a housing be requested in Black? No highly contrasting logos or the like? I would like to make a front end color pattern using Yum Yum Yellow as it looks like I will also be shooting a lot of the big stuff over the coming year. Another project in the pipeline. Please PM for in depth chat.
babubu, just count to ten buddy and all the baddies just go away.
Best,
Mark.
Mike, could a housing be requested in Black? No highly contrasting logos or the like? I would like to make a front end color pattern using Yum Yum Yellow as it looks like I will also be shooting a lot of the big stuff over the coming year. Another project in the pipeline. Please PM for in depth chat.
babubu, just count to ten buddy and all the baddies just go away.
Best,
Mark.
Jason Sturgis
Well-known member
Mark,
You are definitely staring at the business end of that little baddie. He needs to pose like that again when it is 4k. Great stuff and love seeing the frame grabs.
-Jason
You are definitely staring at the business end of that little baddie. He needs to pose like that again when it is 4k. Great stuff and love seeing the frame grabs.
-Jason
- Banned
- #520
Ken Corben
Banned
Black is the color of the finished pro housing from Aquavideo. Laser engraved with no stickers is available. The housings you see here are marketing specific in RED with the logos.
Mike will build what ever you desire or can imagine as I am learning. Although I think he is getting tired of my late night calls for requests and design changes. For sure his girlfriend hates me
He answers the phone, "Ken Corben's Aquavideo 24 hour hotline." Very funny.The two housings in the posted photos, Atlantis and Honolulu, are of the PVC splash design, both custom built for me to test RED 4K underwater and for client shoots these past few months using the RED 18-50mm lens.
The pro housing is nearing completion with a few design changes for the immediate future. "Everything is subject to change, count on it."
Recent design decisions for the first production run:
Birger mount is still being built so we are using the ARRI 8R ultra prime behind a 6" acrylic dome port instead of the Canon 10-22 for now.
Design choice: we will use the RED brick batteries and RED DRIVE mounted on posts at the rear of the housing on a slide out tray (makes the housing a few inches longer but still smaller than an Altecine housing). This is based on testing Li ion batteries and CF cards during the test phases and from input from other UW shooters.
The RED EVF is an elegant solution and in my opinion will be the viewfinder of choice for UW shooters in an external housing on an adjustable arm.
The RED LCD external housing from Aquavideo is fabulous though. I recommend getting one of each external monitor housing since they have specific applications.
Mike and I plan to test all of the above in the coming weeks and will post the results for UW reduser input.
Tons of fun stuff waiting to be shot in RED 4K including the tiger sharks of Aliwal with Mark. Play big or stay home, right Mark?
Sharky