Underwater Bubble Blowin' Users Group

[Mark Thorpe]

My bad.....

My bad.....

http://www.4koceanstock.com/Images/Mantas.jpg

I meant to include this......:whistling:

 

[Andrew M.]

Shot with a Fathoms Engineering SWP44
117 degree AOV- Price: $4,400
Shot from a distance of 5ft, animal diameter approx: 10ft wingspan.

Mark.

This is getting sexy!!
Mark, do you have SWP44 or you do rent?
Also what lenses did you use behind for this shot?

Great shot!!

 

[Michael Hastings]

monitor housing

monitor housing

In post #144 I put some prices. I quoted $1000-1500 which would be a delrin or polypro case. Add about 60% for aluminum. Connectors might be included in that number but depending on type could add 200-300.

Delrin is actually much more expensive than aluminum - but it machines better and no corrosion, no anodizing needed etc. I just have to do the calculations to see if depth capability is practical without beefing it up too much.

Hi Mike,
What kind of figure we talking for independant monitor housing? I was quoted over 5 (five) figures for that by another manufacturer!! Same for an underslung casing I was intending to put an FS100 in (I was originally planning to go HVX200 for the DVCProHD codec instead of the Sony Z1).

Cheers,
Mark.

 

[Mark Thorpe]

Its all mine.....mine I tell you, ha ha ha ha haaaaaaa

Its all mine.....mine I tell you, ha ha ha ha haaaaaaa

Hi Andrew,
I own the SWP44. I moved to HDV in the middle of last year having terminated my love affair with my trusted old Sony VX1000. I went with the Z1, and all the whistles and bells from Gates and Fathom Engineering, meaning the SWP44. For normal everyday use its a huge chunk of glass to carry around but here in Palau I think its worth it. Here we have wrecks, sharks everywhere, mantas and also lakes filled with stingless jellyfish etc, all environments and animals which when filmed with this monster lens really translate well on the screen. For the predators that does of course mean that I have to be right there in their faces to get the shots but thats the fun of this job.

Check out the SWP44 in the attached file. I took some snaps against the Titanium R for scale. The lens is currently having some down time as I'm concentrating on macro stuff at the moment seeing as we have a quiet week.

The lens itself fits directly on to the camera housing and marries up directly with the camera lens, no additional lenses required. The SWP44 fits with a bayonet mount to the housing and has dual O'rings for the seal. It has been designed to work through the whole telephoto range of the camera and allows me to film at full telephoto at a distance of 12 inches from the front of the lens when doing so. I will post a result image of that scenario later.

Check it out. She's a beauty.

Cheers,
Mark.

Hey AquaVideoRed,
Thanks for the pricing, I did see that sorry. Much better news on the cash front on your side of the fence I gotta say. Keep us all posted on the developments etc.

 

[Michael Hastings]

Swp44

Swp44

The thing to remember about the SWP44 is that it is a conversion lens, designed to make a lens that is fix mounted to a camera like the Z1 wider. It doesn't have much application with RED since RED uses interchangeable lenses and you would just start with as wide angle as you want. Even if you went with an Ivanoff corrector (the SWP44 is essentially a wide angle converter with a more modern version of the Ivanoff) it could be much smaller and simpler given the smaller size of the lenses. It is unlikely even an Ivanoff is going to make sense unless somebody just comes up with the perfect lens, since the dome is more flexible in terms of using different lenses and is less costly. In other words if RED comes up with a $5K version of the Zeiss 8mm ($25K) and everybody standardizes on it then it might make sense to design that type of corrector.

I went with the Z1, and all the whistles and bells from Gates and Fathom Engineering, meaning the SWP44. For normal everyday use its a huge chunk of glass to carry around

The lens itself fits directly on to the camera housing and marries up directly with the camera lens, no additional lenses required. The SWP44 fits with a bayonet mount to the housing and has dual O'rings for the seal.
Cheers,
Mark.

 

[Andrew M.]

Guys, Thanks! a lot for the explanation
What I would do without this Underwater Bubble Blowin' Users Group thread
I am monitoring this thread the minute Mark created it.

BTW I am trying to get this program to facilitate the lenses and camera testing. (I am loosing it, too much data)
http://www.imatest.com/docs/tour.html

$500 investment in this program is nothing in comparison to the price of good lenses and there is a lot of &#!% out there when lenses and camera sensors are concern.

http://www.normankoren.com/Tutorials/MTF.html

Andrew

 

[Mike the beginner]

Mark if we compare the proposed red zoom at $9,500 compared to say a cooks or similar, is the difference not about one third of the price.

That would make the 8mm arri type wide angle come in around $10,000 if red made it, given the $30,000 price of the arri 8mm.

I would certainly buy a red 8mm if it came in at $5,000. I just wish red had decided to make their zoom start at 14mm rather than 18mm:sad:


Maybe reds intention is to provide a mediem long and short zoom eventually. imagine a cine 8mm -20mm zoom wow that would be cool with no lens mount changes necessary, just stick to pl mount. Somehow i reckon the primes are next though.

Mike the beginner

 

[David Nardini]

... The thing to remember about the SWP44 is that it is a conversion lens, designed to make a lens that is fix mounted to a camera like the Z1 wider ...

... and optimised / designed to work for the Z1 zoom range (ie: from wide to close up), hence why it is much more complex that a conventional port.

... It is unlikely even an Ivanoff is going to make sense unless somebody just comes up with the perfect lens, since the dome is more flexible in terms of using different lenses and is less costly ...

For FOV up to 90 degrees diagonal, an Ivanoff port may be a good solution for primes, but very unlikely to work consistently with zoom lenses, for the whole range. It may work for lenses that do not change in size (as you zoom), but I've never tried this ???

For FOV greater than 90 degrees diagonal a dome port is most practical (for both primes and zooms). However, the position of the dome centre of curvature is critical relative to lens position (entrance pupil). The wider the FOV, the greater the challenge in keeping edge definition looking good. Larger domes help (internal reflections risk increase) ...

Compromises eh !!!

 

[Michael Hastings]

Compromises

Compromises

The thing I like is that the key component - the 4K RED is not a compromise. So I think with something like the Birger and a 10-22 we will have really good quality - and if something better comes along we can upgrade and improve but we won't need to improve the camera - we are making a leap to a level that should be good for a while - unlike the DV, to 16:9, to HDV incremental jumps we have had to make in the last 5 years or so which are costly at every step.

...
Compromises eh !!!

 

[David Nardini]

... 4K RED + the Birger + Canon 10-22 we will have really good quality ...

agreed ! ... certainly a very good start :biggrin:

Dear Jim & RED Team, now about the RED 8-24mm/f2.8 lens ...

 

[Mark Thorpe]

AquaVideoRed206 - The thing to remember about the SWP44 is that it is a conversion lens, designed to make a lens that is fix mounted to a camera like the Z1 wider. It doesn't have much application with RED since RED uses interchangeable lenses and you would just start with as wide angle as you want.

Granted, and a valid point but this thread I believe is leaning very strongly towards finding an economical solution, in part, to the wide end of RED underwater. If by adapting any RED housing to using a 67 degree lens that could potentially work with the SWP44 therefore giving a 117 degree AOV I believe we would be saving tens of thousands of dollars in glass. SWP44 gives 117 degrees for less than $5k. How much was that 8R that gives 100 degrees? $30k? I'm only looking for a way that will allow use of the SWP, establishing shots would be amazing given that AOV. Picture the camera set on a frame pointing vertically 90 degrees up. Place that in amongst the rocks at Cocos Island and back off. Let the Hammerheads swarm all over it with no bubbles to scare them.

Mike the Beginner - Maybe reds intention is to provide a mediem long and short zoom eventually. imagine a cine 8mm -20mm zoom wow that would be cool with no lens mount changes necessary, just stick to pl mount. Somehow i reckon the primes are next though.

We can only speculate about the way Jim takes the glass issues and how he addresses that. We've seen thus far that he is very methodical in his attack strategy, over 1400 minds are willing his every move. That said I'm sure he monitors every thread in the Forum and is making notes on potential future product releases. I'm sure if producing a super wide lens could be a viable business move and something deemed necessary then he'd go for it. Ohh, and Jim if you do please make it an 8-24mm f2.8 - right on David. There are many shooters here on the board as a whole who are looking at natural history applications and obviously super wide is an absolute must.

As for the price. Who knows? Maybe 8 to 10k.......but not much more eh Jim?

AquaVideoRed206...we are making a leap to a level that should be good for a while - unlike the DV, to 16:9, to HDV incremental jumps we have had to make in the last 5 years or so which are costly at every step.

Thank God for that.......

Cheers,
Mark.

 

[Ken Corben]

Until then?

Until then?

Imagine a PL mount cine style RED 10-24mm/f2.8 lens for $10K? Schwing! This lens would end all speculation and debate on this thread.

Until that day over the rainbow - thank goodness for Mike Hastings and Birger for the possible economical solutions they are working on. Evin's sticky about Nikon glass as the workhorse for Arri cine lenses is very encouraging.

I will need to see the lens tests personally both projected and on a monitor to see the truth before I decide and invest since broadcast 1080i HDTV is not the end all for my projects.

March of the Penguins - was this entirely shot in S35 for theatrical release? I think not. Classic French production - the food and wine were 5 star

Shooting format: Super 16 mm, plus DV for underwater sequences.
Compelling, emotionally involving struggle of the photogenic birds against the elements, shot against gorgeous, pristine icescapes in a rarely seen part of the world. Enormous intimacy of the footage, achieved with no noticeable intrusion by the filmmakers. Plus, U.S. version, featuring a new narration and score, has become the most successful nature doc in box office history and drawn virtually unanimous critical raves.
Memorable scenes: Penguin parents perform a delicate ritual to transfer a fragile egg from the care of one to the other. The birds huddle together to withstand a brutal storm. The Southern Lights ricochet across the Antarctic sky. Penguin mothers, job accomplished, leave their toddling young behind to fend for themselves as they return to the sea to start the cycle over.
On making the film: To Jacquet, who grew up in the Swiss Alps and relishes sub-zero climes, the cold was not a hardship, but dealing with winds that raged at 80-120 mph certainly was. "The wind made everything difficult. It made the camera vibrate," says Jacquet, who used computer graphics to stabilize the image (the only special effect in the film).
Filming spanned 13 months in the severe climate -- but unlike the penguins, the four-man crew dined well, thanks to the proximity of the French Polar Institute, which had its own pastry chef and stores of red wine, beef and, of course, frozen food. "The institute was 20 minutes' walk from the breeding grounds. Without it, we couldn't have made the film," says Jacquet.
Still, the film had its own survival drama, when financier Bonne Pioche, the only willing investor, ran out of funds. Quick action at Cannes by Paris-based sales company Wild Bunch, which sold 50 territories in a 24-hour span, "saved the life of the film and the production company," says Jacquet. "It's very interesting to think about that now," he reflects.
Throughout the filming, the crew maintained a distance of at least 10 meters from the birds, using long lenses for close-ups and never interfering with the penguins' tenuous grip on survival. Operating under such extreme conditions makes you aware that "everything is precious. Every gesture counts," reflects Jacquet.

 

[Mark Thorpe]

Sharkguy - Imagine a PL mount cine style RED 10-24mm/f2.8 lens for $10K? Schwing! This lens would end all speculation and debate on this thread.

Schaaawing! Ain't that the truth......but until that happens let's just imagine that perfect world where the water is warm, the animals are behaving, the mating whalesharks are cavorting just so and Angelina is about to play with your low pressure inflater..........:wink: Damn, going by the looks of my Avatar I guess Angelina mixed up the hoses.

Cheers,
Mark.

 

[Michael Hastings]

Swp44

Swp44

I think this is all about value. I'm not trying to knock the SWP44 but I think you need to be practical about what it is. It is a very low volume manufactured item - and therefore fairly expensive for what it is - water contact wide converter designed to get the most you can out of the cheap lens on low end, prosumer cameras like the Z1, that don't have access to the interchangeable, much higher quality lenses readily available for the higher end cameras.

I'm not knocking the Z1 either, we all know if makes pretty darn good pictures for the price (and the V1 is even nicer). And I'm also on record that the Varicams and HDCAMs are questionable as to the picture quality gain relative to the huge price jump. I'm pretty friendly with several of the product managers at Panasonic, and for the past 4 years I told them flatly that I wasn't going to by a Varicam or anything else like it until they put a firewire port on it - because it was bad enough to be asked to pay 50 grand for a 1 megapixel camera but it was an insult to my intelligence to make me step backward into the tape deck world to be able to get it into my edit system. Well they finally introduced one with the firewire port last NAB but it was too late I had already been to the RED booth.

My point is that the SWP44 my be useful if you already own it and it would work with something like the RED zoom (I doubt it will as I think the front element is going to be too big). But even there you are talking $9500 for the RED zoom and $4400 for the SWP44 - hardly an economical choice. And that's assuming that the SWP44 is optically as sharp - remember it was designed to be used with the Z1 which is only operating at that 1 megapixel or so resolution level. The SWP44 may hold up - but until proven through actual testing with real high resolution lenses and sensors - one would expect it to perform more at the level of the lenses for which it was designed.

Given that the SWP44 is designed for a lens with a 72mm front end, and as i've said it seems that most of the Cine glass is going to be larger, what lens would you be thinking of using it with? It might work with a Canon or Nikon still lens in that 17 - 20 mm range but what would be the point if you could just use the 10-22 zoom with no conversion.

The 8R was 20K Euro list price but that would be much wider than either of these solutions. I think a 10 or 12mm would 14-15K.

BTW in other thread Evin Grant, who has been doing the still camera lens tests pointed out that the higher end still lens were pretty equivalent to the Cine lenses in sharpness, the biggest difference was in the "breathing" (a slight zooming effect) when you shift focus. That is applicable more in the theatrical movie shooting where you often shift focus from one person to another and it would be a little annoying, but that doesn't apply in underwater and probably not much even in abovewater nature shooting.

Granted, and a valid point but this thread I believe is leaning very strongly towards finding an economical solution, in part, to the wide end of RED underwater. If by adapting any RED housing to using a 67 degree lens that could potentially work with the SWP44 therefore giving a 117 degree AOV I believe we would be saving tens of thousands of dollars in glass. SWP44 gives 117 degrees for less than $5k. How much was that 8R that gives 100 degrees? $30k? I'm only looking for a way that will allow use of the SWP, establishing shots would be amazing given that AOV. Picture the camera set on a frame pointing vertically 90 degrees up. Place that in amongst the rocks at Cocos Island and back off. Let the Hammerheads swarm all over it with no bubbles to scare them.



We can only speculate about the way Jim takes the glass issues and how he addresses that. We've seen thus far that he is very methodical in his attack strategy, over 1400 minds are willing his every move. That said I'm sure he monitors every thread in the Forum and is making notes on potential future product releases. I'm sure if producing a super wide lens could be a viable business move and something deemed necessary then he'd go for it. Ohh, and Jim if you do please make it an 8-24mm f2.8 - right on David. There are many shooters here on the board as a whole who are looking at natural history applications and obviously super wide is an absolute must.

As for the price. Who knows? Maybe 8 to 10k.......but not much more eh Jim?



Thank God for that.......

Cheers,
Mark.

 

[Ken Corben]

What is wide enough?

What is wide enough?

I think the Arri 8R is an amazing lens but yet has specific applications and may not be the standard wide prime for the mysterium sensor underwater. Did anyone notice the speed blurring on the shallow DOF for the tests on the Arri web site?

If the subject matter is big animals underwater then the 35mm equivalent of an 18mm will work just fine. In other words it boils down to the Canon 10-22 solution as an amazing possibility or the Zeiss 10 or 12 depending on tests for a RED Uw system. I do not think any conversion or wide angle adapters will work as a simple/elegant solution for 4K acquisiton (wishful thinking or expensive work around?). Of course there are always exceptions, e.g., 2K?

Imagine this encounter (photo) in 3-D with a RED 4K system projected on an IMAX screen. This is my technical goal as an underwater DP. Again, it is a balance of subject matter and story line compared to technical superiority to meet audience expectations.

 

[Mark Thorpe]

Hey Mike,
I am right with you on everything. I think its nice to have an open conversation to look at all aspects of what we are trying to do here. I really do like the SWP44 given what it does with the Z1 setup. I would again obviously love to think this performance could somehow be transitioned economically to become a reality in the RED Arena. If not then I will sell it. There are many underwater forums where very serious amateurs would snap it up, heck David (h2opixels) has even reserved first refusal. Its a nice thing to be sat on an asset that could easily raise 1/3rd of the cash needed for a real nice glass option for RED.

Sharkguy - I think we are whittling down the options here which is a good thing. It will be very nice once the likes of Gibby start to get their cameras and subsequently their housings. Then we'll really be able to start getting a handle on what works and what doesn't. The next couple of months are going to be an amazing ride.

Right there with you on that shot.

Cheers,
Mark.

 

[Michael Hastings]

8R vs 10mm

8R vs 10mm

I was looking over the Ultra Prime list and it seems the T2.1 10mm may be the best bang for the buck in real cine lenses at about $20K vs. the T2.8 at $25K. 10mm is still superwide and the extra speed may be valuable as well. The other Ultra Primes are very close to the same price - you only save a grand or so by going to 12mm, 14, 16, etc.

BTW. These lenses are big - the front end of the 10 millimeter is over 6" which means big hole & big dome.

Again, I think the most practical scenario is going to be Canon Still lens (10-22) with Birger mount for most owner operators with the ability to use the Ultraprime 8 or 10 on a rental or purchase basis as the bigger budgets come in.

I think the Arri 8R is an amazing lens but yet has specific applications and may not be the standard wide prime for the mysterium sensor underwater. Did anyone notice the speed blurring on the shallow DOF for the tests on the Arri web site?

If the subject matter is big animals underwater then the 35mm equivalent of an 18mm will work just fine. In other words it boils down to the Canon 10-22 solution as an amazing possibility or the Zeiss 10 or 12 depending on tests for a RED Uw system. I do not think any conversion or wide angle adapters will work as a simple/elegant solution for 4K acquisiton (wishful thinking or expensive work around?). Of course there are always exceptions, e.g., 2K?

Imagine this encounter (photo) in 3-D with a RED 4K system projected on an IMAX screen. This is my technical goal as an underwater DP. Again, it is a balance of subject matter and story line compared to technical superiority to meet audience expectations.

 

[Andrew M.]

I agree with you 100%
I see from my calculations the Misterium is 80lines/mm sensor.
Theoretically if you take 5.5 micron photo sites spacing of Misterium, it is 181 l/mm sensor but it will be the best case scenario if photo sites are round and only for luminance and 3X3 and 2X2 comparative luminance deBayer alghoritm.
Most materials are rated for luminance anyway.
1mm/5.5microns = 181.8

So if sensor is 80-180 then we should get 150 l/mm lenses then, minimum, otherwise we can’t really get the best out of Misterium? Also we have to look on MTF since contrast ratio is important when looking just for l/mm specification, some l/mm ratings are just rating it at 10% modulation/contrast ratio.

Since we are working with the same frame size, S35, it is easy to compare sensors/material and lenses.
I still can’t figure out the influence of the .5 to 1mm cover glass over the CMOS sensor, especially when 8-10mm lenses are concern and far end corners hit by light at 45deg angle, could be bit stretched. This cover glass is also Low/High Pass Filter and protects the sensor at the same time.
I have a meeting with Arri on Tuesday so I will get some more news on this one.
See the picture of the high end sensor and cover glass placement.
http://www.dalsa.com/pi/documents/FTF4052M product sheet.pdf

BTW Master primes are much newer that Ultra Prime except UP 8R
Andrew

 

[Andrew M.]

Cover Glass - Low Pass Filter

Cover Glass - Low Pass Filter

Found something - not much.

 

[Mark Thorpe]

Been a while......

Been a while......

Hey Guys,
Been busy so not been around the board for a couple of days. Funny how it seems to become a part of you, weird how one misses the interaction. Well just to keep spirits up I've been back to the baitball and its still surviving although getting smaller by the day now. I guess now that there are not so many survivors the daily count is noticeable.

I'm also in the writing stage as I am now looking to make a short film for the festival circuit this year. The main submission is to Antibes in France at the end of October so I'm going to be doing a short doco on macro shot between Palau, Indonesia (hence the trip) and the Philippines. One month to edit and FedEx to France should be fine. Max duration circa 15 minutes. Shorter versions will then also be sent around to some California based Ocean related festivals etc.

If they get into the finals of any of the California festivals then I guess I'll have to make the trek over and catch up with the B.B.U.G's (Name of this forum Group) and check out that 3D rig you were on about there Ken.

Cheers,
Mark.