Underwater Bubble Blowin' Users Group

[Mark Thorpe]

Now that we have the storage options I guess John (Gates) will have to get feedback from us to decide on what he's gonna design his unit for. I guess the added size will be the factor when looking at the drive option. BUT they are cheaper than the flash options and larger in capacity so if they flood its an easier pill to swallow, although I would never like to be reaching for that particular packet of pills!

My personal choice would be the drives. Can I get a second? I guess its best to try and get a majority vote and submit that directly to John.

So I vote for Drives.......

Joelnet, yeah tough break. I was here when that happened. Our team went the following year.

Cheers,
Mark.

 

[Michael Hastings]

Drives

Drives

If you leave room for the REDDRIVE you should be able to use REDRAM as it will either be the same size or smaller. I think the Flash card stuff using Compact Flash is either slots on the camera or a very compact adapter that should fit easily.

My guess is that that we may mount the drive in a different position than right on the camera - like we do with the Citidisk and Firestore units.

Finally, my experience with the Fieldpaks on my Ikegamis is that you can easily upgrade the drives - the package is just case to give you something to handle, a connector that can handle multiple insertions better and shock mounting.

RED probably would have done the same thing - that is onboard drives like the Fieldpaks- had it not been for the emergence of ESATA - which makes a cabled drive very easy to achieve.

The option of CF means you can shoot some footage - like the rough ride boat ride - on CF and leave the harddrives powered down until conditions are more favorable.

My personal choice would be the drives. Can I get a second? I guess its best to try and get a majority vote and submit that directly to John.

Cheers,
Mark.

 

[Ken Corben]

Design challenges...

Design challenges...

So the Red Canon lens adapter opens up a few possibilities for an underwater housing. Still, there is no straight forward solution thus far for lens selection?

Thoughts?

Flash vs HDD
I think since there are shooters out there using the citidisk and other HDD solutions maybe the Reddrive will work? It is certainly cool to get 320 minutes of redcode 4K RAW for $1,000 but I am concerned about the "risk" factor Jim mentions. $1500 per 32GB gives us 32 minutes of Redcode 4K RAW underwater and more security for lossless digital acquisition. Tough choice. Maybe we have to utilize 3+ flash drives for a day shoot and then transfer to HDD at night in order to utilze the flash drives the next day?

Clearly the housing needs to accommodate both options in terms of space for HDD and flash in my opinion as stated by aquavideo. Perhaps with field tests a final decision can be made. I'd guess Gibby is right on with Flash as the only hand held solution for professional shoots. One thing is certain, the Flash option will get cheaper over time.

 

[Michael Hastings]

Why is flash the only hand held solution?

Why is flash the only hand held solution?

Why is flash the only hand held solution? As I mentioned before the Ikegami EditcamII has been using the 2.5" laptop drives since 1999. The Editcam system was specifically designed for ENG which is about 90% handheld. Editcam didn't catch on that much in the US news market (which tends to be Sony-centric and tape-centric and the format used is dictated downward by the Network's choice - which is why Betacam is still so heavily used even though it is thoroughly obsolete technically) Editcam has greater usage in certain parts of Europe. Also remember that when they started out the standard 4 gig drive (very large for a laptop at that time) cost over $1000 - similar to P2 cards today. I don't think disk reliability has ever been a big issue.

In highend movie production, where shots are short and budgets are high, flash may be slightly preferable - but I wouldn't be overly concerned with the "risk factor" of hard drives.

I'd guess Gibby is right on with Flash as the only hand held solution for professional shoots. One thing is certain, the Flash option will get cheaper over time.

 

[Rob Lohman]

It isn't the only hand held solution. You can hand-held shoot with RED-DRIVE and RED RAM too, you just need a little bit of gear to mount it to the camera. Like:

http://red.com/images/photo_zoom/redone_30.jpg

 

[Mark Thorpe]

At the outset I think I'll opt for the drives. 320 GB of available space. Its size that matters in this issue for me. I have friends using P2 cards with Panny HVX200's and they hate being restricted by the reduced shooting times, especially underwater. One of them is using the FireStore FS100 which allows him more freedom. He's reported no issues thus far. Not wanting to push this envelope through six figure options I just wanna look at getting underwater with RED, push that point with marketing and networking and then as and when time (income) allows look toward pimping out the RED with further underwater options. Allowing for both options in the housing would be a very good point though.

The lens issue is still a hurdle for me.

Hey AquaVideoRed, I mentioned John 'coz he's my manufacturer of choice. I appreciate your presence here and in no way wish to sound that I am ignoring your products.

Cheers,
Mark.

 

[Mike the beginner]

Mark, thanks for keeping the underwater sections going it is appreciated.

The choice of what recording to go for is not easy. I will obviously get the red drive since it's sheer storage capacity is a no brainer.

But for shorter periods of recording i am looking at the sata flash at 32 gb since it is likely (i hope) to allow flash buffering and therfore have pre-record.

With a possible 30 minutes of recording time or more depending on format chosen IF the red flash has the pre-record then think of the minutes saved if you are in a situation of waiting for something to appear.

The express card could also be the black horse in faster new technology ramping up the storage capacity.

Question? Will the start up time of the camera be quicker wioth the flash than with red drive?

Question will red drive have pre-record by being linked to any of the flash media?

Question will we be able to transfer the flash recording IN CAMERA to the red drive. These sound to me like big issues. How can one decide on what accessories to purchase and when , if we do not yet know the answers to these questions? Give us a wee hint Red come on.... Just a beginner's thoughts really:innocent:

Mike the beginner

 

[Mark Thorpe]

Hi Mike,
Divers and like minded people have kept this thread alive. I am but one small member of the group here who choose to work in the water medium. There is a plethora of knowledge, skill and accomplishments attributed to those who frequent this forum. I'm happy to be able to have a place to chat with these guys, a place to bounce ideas around etc. I may not be the most technically minded person in the bunch but put me in with a couple of white sharks and I'll show you a pair of plums as big as watermellons.

Divers are a strange breed, I'm just happy to have found a calling that allows me the opportunity to blend in.

Cheers,
Mark.

 

[Michael Hastings]

Re: Lenses and Gates

Re: Lenses and Gates

I appreciate that - I was kind of wondering. Gates is a good company - in fact pretty much all of the makers of underwater housings are good people with respectable products. As you probably know the dive industry is pretty small and I have always had a pretty friendly relationship with Barret at Light and Motion, Ike at Ikelite before he died, etc. I don't really know John - our paths haven't crossed that much since he bought the company from Elwin.

Hey AquaVideoRed, I mentioned John 'coz he's my manufacturer of choice. I appreciate your presence here and in no way wish to sound that I am ignoring your products.

Cheers,
Mark.

I think the lens is the issue for everybody. It is an easy one if you have $20K or so to spend on the Arri 10 or 12mm prime. Otherwise, it is unclear. I think the Canon EF-S 10-22mm is the most promising of the relatively low cost options. Some of that discussion has moved over to the "Why Not Canon EOS lens thread" but in summary, Birger already has a solution for a number of Canon EF and EF-s for iris and focus control - which is the hard part - and is just awaiting specs from RED on the physical mounting. The EF-S 10-22 looks to be a great solution for our purpose and is already supported by his mount.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=357&page=2

The lens issue is still a hurdle for me.

 

[Michael Hastings]

Pre record buffer

Pre record buffer

I'm interested in your comment on pre-record. I forget what Sony calls it, but Ikegami calls it retroloop on my Hard disk Editcams. I don't see any reason why you shouldn't be able to have pre-record/retroloop on any of the options - all it is is that it is constantly recording whatever is happening and holding a certain amount - on the Ikegami (which uses the same harddrives as REDDRIVE) you can set it for 3 to 300 seconds - and flushes it when it exceeds the set time limit. A hard drive doesn't really care whether it is spinning and waiting or spinning and recording - it is basically the same energy and wear and tear. When you hit record it just tells the drive to keep all of the already stored info and keep going until you hit stop. This is also why it shouldn't take any startup time from when you hit record, the drive is always in position. (By the way, it doesn't really "flush" it, it just updates the FAT (file allocation table) with the position and name of the file. Unless there is a power save function, the drive is always spinning and this is generally better for the drive - it is harder on the drive to start and stop spinning than just to keep spinning constantly.

But for shorter periods of recording i am looking at the sata flash at 32 gb since it is likely (i hope) to allow flash buffering and therfore have pre-record.

With a possible 30 minutes of recording time or more depending on format chosen IF the red flash has the pre-record then think of the minutes saved if you are in a situation of waiting for something to appear.

Question? Will the start up time of the camera be quicker wioth the flash than with red drive?

Question will red drive have pre-record by being linked to any of the flash media?


Mike the beginner

 

[Ken Corben]

Darwin on Celluloid, Tape and HDD...

Darwin on Celluloid, Tape and HDD...

Cellulozoic Era
Film stocks evolved to ever faster speeds, color saturation and exposure lattitude.

Chemical Cost Extinction Phase

Taperassic Era
Remember first time you shot Hi-8 underwater? It was revolutionary.
Then 3 chip miniDV WOW!
Then D-betacam - double WOW!
Then HDCAM - the end all?
Oh ya, HDCAM's bastard child HDV.
DVC ProHD and on and on and on...

Imperial Capitalist vs Corporate trickle down wars of 21st century


Disktaceous Era
4K Redraw to disk
So we start with 320GB Redraid HDD and/or flash options.

It will be fun to look at the Darwinian analysis of tapeless recording and this thread several years from now.

 

[Mark Thorpe]

Think sooner than that.......what was that? RED TWO ......? Just when you thought it was safe to start saving some beer tokens ............ arghhhhhhh, make it stooooooooooop.

Cheers,
Mark.
P.S Hey guys, the bait ball is still rockin'. Went there today, will post a piccie in the next day or two. Its amazing there are any fish left.

 

[Mike the beginner]

Pre record buffer

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm interested in your comment on pre-record. I forget what Sony calls it, but Ikegami calls it retroloop on my Hard disk Editcams. I don't see any reason why you shouldn't be able to have pre-record/retroloop on any of the options - all it is is that it is constantly recording whatever is happening and holding a certain amount - on the Ikegami (which uses the same harddrives as REDDRIVE) you can set it for 3 to 300 seconds - and flushes it when it exceeds the set time limit. A hard drive doesn't really care whether it is spinning and waiting or spinning and recording - it is basically the same energy and wear and tear. When you hit record it just tells the drive to keep all of the already stored info and keep going until you hit stop. This is also why it shouldn't take any startup time from when you hit record, the drive is always in position. (By the way, it doesn't really "flush" it, it just updates the FAT (file allocation table) with the position and name of the file. Unless there is a power save function, the drive is always spinning and this is generally better for the drive - it is harder on the drive to start and stop spinning than just to keep spinning constantly.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike the beginner
But for shorter periods of recording i am looking at the sata flash at 32 gb since it is likely (i hope) to allow flash buffering and therfore have pre-record.

With a possible 30 minutes of recording time or more depending on format chosen IF the red flash has the pre-record then think of the minutes saved if you are in a situation of waiting for something to appear.

Question? Will the start up time of the camera be quicker wioth the flash than with red drive?

Question will red drive have pre-record by being linked to any of the flash media?

Mike the beginner

__________________________________________________

Thanks for your reply AquaVideo it is greatly appreciated.

 

[Ken Corben]

"Camera speed!"

"Camera speed!"

Great questions!

Pre-record or very fast ramp up time is a vital tool in underwater nat history. If it's not in the initial RED release I am hoping Yes it's coming or is a simple firmare/software update as a buffer in HDD or flash?

 

[Mark Thorpe]

I know everyone here hates the devil spawn format of HDV but its given me better clarity than DV of late. Believe me I know of the frustration in spin up times as I hit the loud button sometimes on the Z1 and end up having to wait an excruciating 10 seconds as the STBY blinks green, "OK this time.....doooooh, this time".....what a pain in the arse. It normally gets back up to speed just as the umbilical chord of the Manta has just been finished off by the patrolling Tiger sharks! Always the way.

At least with macro I can take my time. This shot from today on a shallow reef by my office. Nice to be able to just flop into the ocean a stones thrown from this very seat.

Cheers,
Mark

 

[Mike the beginner]

I know everyone here hates the devil spawn format of HDV but its given me better clarity than DV of late. Believe me I know of the frustration in spin up times as I hit the loud button sometimes on the Z1 and end up having to wait an excruciating 10 seconds as the STBY blinks green, "OK this time.....doooooh, this time".....what a pain in the arse. It normally gets back up to speed just as the umbilical chord of the Manta has just been finished off by the patrolling Tiger sharks! Always the way.

At least with macro I can take my time. This shot from today on a shallow reef by my office. Nice to be able to just flop into the ocean a stones thrown from this very seat.

Cheers,
Mark

Nice Photo, i wonder what the little chap was thinking? Not YOU again!!

Mark have you made any decison on what lens you are going to settle for with the underwater unit. I can only be advised by those who have experience. It just seems logical to use the red zoom lens provided most users felt it was wide enough at 18mm. That the zoom function could be controlled and that there is a facility for the stop start.

Kinda disappointed to hear a few guys are already going for prime lenses at 12mm or so. These are very expensive and would put the whole underwater part of my plans out of bounds.

I will be using the red in Scottish waters in the marine estuaries or in freshwater rivers. From what i am gathering our marine environment does not have good visability. I just wonder then if i would be restricted by this to such an extent that a wide prime would be essential?

If you have any input or anyone else please feel free to suggest. I will in due course speak to someone over here who has experience, first i need to know what underwater unit provides the best price to build ratio for depths no more than about twenty feet.

Mike the beginner

 

[Michael Hastings]

pre-record

pre-record

Given the other hardware on board I think it will be relatively easy to implement down the road. Again, with non linear media - i.e. hard drives or memory it doesn't even need to be a buffer like on a digital betacam where it has to buffer then lay it off to tape.

Great questions!

Pre-record or very fast ramp up time is a vital tool in underwater nat history. If it's not in the initial RED release I am hoping Yes it's coming or is a simple firmare/software update as a buffer in HDD or flash?

 

[Michael Hastings]

18-85 underwater

18-85 underwater

Mike:

since 18 is equivalent to a 28mm on a regular still SLR 35 it is not very wide at all and you will be particularly disappointed in poor visibility which needs superwide even more than clear tropical. Also superwide is even more important for underwater motion picture than stills.

I think you are going to find that the Birger Engineering Canon lens adapter using the 10-22 Canon EF-S lens is going to be the cheapest (and maybe one of the best) options.

If you are looking at the red zoom, you are probably better off looking at this Canon mount option. Erik from Birger has suggested that it will be about $1500 and it isn't clear if that will include the mount to the red but if not that probably would add $500 to $1000 making it about $2500 for the mount which will let you use any of the Canon EF lenses - with the ability to do iris and focus remotely as well as regular manual - something even the RED zoom doesn't allow. I suspect the Canon L-type lenses are nearly as good, and possibly better optically than the RED zoom will be, and on the telephoto side you get the image stabilization too - something not offered on the RED lens or even the Zeiss, Cooke, etc. cine lenses. If you are going to shoot true hollywood major motion picture style production, you will want and be able to afford those lenses (at least to rent). But if you are shooting low budget indie style, or documentary type stuff I think you will find the ability to have stabilized long zooms a huge advantage.

To me the RED 18-85 is the mid-level indie style do anything lens.

The EF-S 10-22 and the EF 28-300 would provide phenomenal coverage from superwide to supertelephoto for about $4500 including the mount.

EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM $700
EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM ~$700
EF 28-300mm f/3.5-5.6L IS USM ~ 1300

If you are really on a budget, there are even cheaper canon zooms that are quite good, but require a little more light.

Nice Photo, i wonder what the little chap was thinking? Not YOU again!!

Mark have you made any decison on what lens you are going to settle for with the underwater unit. I can only be advised by those who have experience. It just seems logical to use the red zoom lens provided most users felt it was wide enough at 18mm. That the zoom function could be controlled and that there is a facility for the stop start.

Kinda disappointed to hear a few guys are already going for prime lenses at 12mm or so. These are very expensive and would put the whole underwater part of my plans out of bounds.

I will be using the red in Scottish waters in the marine estuaries or in freshwater rivers. From what i am gathering our marine environment does not have good visability. I just wonder then if i would be restricted by this to such an extent that a wide prime would be essential?

If you have any input or anyone else please feel free to suggest. I will in due course speak to someone over here who has experience, first i need to know what underwater unit provides the best price to build ratio for depths no more than about twenty feet.

Mike the beginner

 

[Ken Corben]

The Canon EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5

The Canon EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5

I think you are going to find that the Birger Engineering Canon lens adapter using the 10-22 Canon EF-S lens is going to be the cheapest (and maybe one of the best) options.


Mike,

Based on the Canon lens tech specs what will be the final underwater angle of coverage thru the appropriate dome on the mysterium sensor? 100 deg?

Best guess with out actual testing - underwater shot in 4K then projected in 2K will audiences notice or care about the difference between this lens and a Zeiss prime?

Best guess - underwater shot in 4K then broadcast at 1080i?

The Canon EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM is Canon's widest zoom lens (in fact widest lens of any type) for the Canon 1.6x DSLRs which accept EF-S mount lenses, i.e. the Canon Digital Rebel, Canon Digital Rebel XT and Canon EOS 20D.

EF-S lenses have a shorter back focus distance (i.e. the rear element is closer to the image plane) then EF series lenses. This, in theory, permits higher lens performance with very short focal length lenses - and 10-22mm counts as "very short"! They have a reduced size image circle to match the 1.6x APS-C format sensors and a modified lens mount which prevents them being mounted on full frame camera. If they were mounted on a full frame camera, not only would they not cover the frame, but the SLR mirror would hit the back of the lens.

 

[Michael Hastings]

Re: 10-22 field of view

Re: 10-22 field of view

The whole deal with the EF-S lens is that the Digital SLR sensors (except for a couple of Canons with full frame sensors) are all about the same size as RED. Therefore all of the backfocus, image circle stuff is fine for working with the RED.

RED 35mm 22.2 x 12.6 = 25.52 diagonal
RED S35mm 24.4 x 13.7 = 27.98 diagonal
EF-S may vignette on S35 but is pretty close and may be fine.

Canon REBEL XT etc. 22.2 x 14.8 mm CMOS sensor = 26.68 diagonal

25.52/26.68 = .956 multiplier for 35mm aperture
27.98/26.68 = 1.048 multiplier for 35mm aperture

10mm =
= 107.5 degree diagonal field of view on Canon REBEL XTi
= 102.77 degrees on RED 35mm
= 112.75 degrees on RED S35mm

These are the actual angles for the RED and REBEL XTi, when you start looking at the regular EF lenses on the chart you need to multiply the diagonal times .62 to get what it will be for RED since they are generally speced for full frame 35mm SLR.

EF 28-300mm f/3.5-5.6L IS USM 75°– 8°15' will be 47°– 5°
(about $2199 at B&H)
EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM** 34°– 12° will be 21°– 7.5°
(about $1699 at B&H)

http://www.usa.canon.com/app/pdf/lens/EFLensChart.pdf

In the near term audiences certainly aren't going to notice since they are used to watching a lot of stuff at the local theatre that isn't particularly sharp and they won't have much digital originated material to compare it to.

You get into a situation where we're trying to separate the difference between noticeable and distinguishable. In other words side by side you may be able to distinguish the difference, but say going from one room to another it may not be noticed.

Going to regular high def I highly doubt there is any real difference. Even full 1920p1080 is only 2 megapixel and hardly anybody actual records this - F900 HDCAM, Varicam, all of the HDVs, actually record between 1 and 1.5 megapixels with a fair amount of compression.

I don't think you can go wrong with a $5K to $10 K used cine prime. 20K to 25 K for a new ultra prime gives me some pause. Remember not only do we have a cost issue, but if Birger's mount works and is available fairly quickly it also solves the focus and iris control issues very nicely.

I think when we want to shoot for IMAX output, you are going to want absolutely the best, otherwise we can look at the used lenses or the Canon option as possibly fine for the long term - but definitely fine for the short term until we see what becomes available. Just the sheer number of new cameras is going to distort both the used and new market for high level Cine lenses. (even if only a third of the 1500 REDs go with high level lenses that will probably double to triple the annual sales of Arri, Zeiss and Cooke Lenses) initially prices on used are going to get much higher - there just aren't many out there. But eventually either Zeiss and Cooke will lower some prices or Schneider/Century and RED will start creating more lower cost new lenses. It wouldn't surprise me at all that we could convince Jim Jannard to create a 10 or 12mm prime in the sub $5K range - maybe as the next lens to be offered a year or so down the road.

I mentioned it on another thread, but the big thing about the Birger mount is that it opens the door to all of the EF lenses which is huge by itself, but further Erik confirmed that the Image stabilization works on the telephoto and telephoto zooms. That is just phenomenal capability for Nature photography as well as any handheld stuff. Arri, Zeiss, Cooke, RED, etc. just don't really have the volume necessary to work the stabilization into their engineering, and since their prime movers are the film industry - which doesn't really need the stabilized stuff - they probably don't feel much of a need to do it.

The 28-300 F3.5 is their L series (which is the "pro" level) with stabilizer and combined with 10-22 gives you superwide to supertelephoto for less than $3000 and I would suggest that they will be pretty damn sharp.

I think you are going to find that the Birger Engineering Canon lens adapter using the 10-22 Canon EF-S lens is going to be the cheapest (and maybe one of the best) options.


Mike,

Based on the Canon lens tech specs what will be the final underwater angle of coverage thru the appropriate dome on the mysterium sensor? 100 deg?

Best guess with out actual testing - underwater shot in 4K then projected in 2K will audiences notice or care about the difference between this lens and a Zeiss prime?

Best guess - underwater shot in 4K then broadcast at 1080i?

The Canon EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM is Canon's widest zoom lens (in fact widest lens of any type) for the Canon 1.6x DSLRs which accept EF-S mount lenses, i.e. the Canon Digital Rebel, Canon Digital Rebel XT and Canon EOS 20D.

EF-S lenses have a shorter back focus distance (i.e. the rear element is closer to the image plane) then EF series lenses. This, in theory, permits higher lens performance with very short focal length lenses - and 10-22mm counts as "very short"! They have a reduced size image circle to match the 1.6x APS-C format sensors and a modified lens mount which prevents them being mounted on full frame camera. If they were mounted on a full frame camera, not only would they not cover the frame, but the SLR mirror would hit the back of the lens.