Underwater Bubble Blowers User Group Thread NEW

[Pawel Achtel]

...The Nikonos 15 is DEFINITELY an antiquated lens, regardless of how good, and I agree it produces outstanding images, it is even by today's standards. But, it was built using technology, methodology and materials that have been since, far surpassed in quality. Several generations of lens making have come and gone since. That is definition of antiquated. Just as a sports car built in the 1970's is still fun to drive and fast, when you compared it to the technologies available today, you realize what antiquated and modern means. Thus, the quality, precision and coatings of the glass used on the Nikon 14-24 is far superior to those employed in the Nikonos 15, as are the precision of the methods used for its fabrication. Fact.

You can not compare Nikonos 15 to Nikon 14-24: one has been designed for underwater and one for land. It is like comparing a sports car with a spead boat in an ocean race. How relevant do you think it is that the sports car is newer make than the boat?

To my knowledge there is no wide underwater lens or any optical system that would perform better than the Nikonos 15mm. The Nikonos 15 features modern (and expensive) retrofocus design, very solid build and is the only underwater optics worthy of 4k and 5k sensors. What generations, or more precisely, features have "come and gone"? To my knowledge there is nothing that comes close in underwater optics. There never was.

...But, how then does the Nikonos lens still look much better than most, if not all, water corrected lenses behind a dome? The simple answer as you pointed out is that it is a system built from the ground up to compensate for, or eliminate, the problems the underwater medium presents. But in so building this system, Nikon simply took a 20 mm air corrected lens and built around it to eliminate the aberrations that water introduces....

Yes, this answer is very simple. It is also entirely incorrect. Where do you get all this nonesense from? :frown2:

...The solutions to this problem, though ingenious, are simple:
- use a dome that will precisely align with the lens' entrance pupil, so that nodal point is equidistant from dome center and sides. This will produce a a properly aligned image, though with softer edges since the image projected by the dome is still curved.
- Build the dome with variable thickness glass, such that thicker edges provide a magnifying effect and help render the softer corners sharper so they match the center. To that effect, the center of the dome is much thinner.
- Introduce corrective elements in the lens design that will further correct the aberrations and curvature of image so that final result is rectilinear and sharp from edge to edge.

That's it, is not rocket science...

Indeed, it is not rocket science and there is no evidence that it would produce the desired outcome. However, there is good evidence to the contrary. In fact, placing positive diopters or/and making front element positive has been known for donkeys years and it has proved to produce rather poor results: it introduces severe chromatic aberrations, causes additional distortions, it makes the edges soft and does not overcome image plane curvature produced by the dome.

Please post the images that can be somehow evaluated.

...I was merely trying to share my excitement for something I've seen that seems to solve the main problem underwater encountered by a lens, the 14-24, that on land is possibly the very best rectilinear wide angle ever made. I know I am enthused with the images I'm seeing, as would be many other people on this forum that, like me, go more on feeling than on numbers.

Cheers,

I think 14-24 is a relatively poor lens for land cinematography as it has been designed as a still lens: flimsy build for cine use, inaccurate focus ring, breathing, flare, etc.... There are much better cinema lenses for this purpose. But, having the 14-24mm produce satisfactory results in water may be as challenging as making a Ferrari sail across the Pacific. Horses for courses.

 

[Frazier Nivens]

I want one of those domes :conehead:...

This is quite funny Tom. I'll take two of these.

 

[Pawel Achtel]

I'm delighted to see the images and feedback posted by one of our customers, Phil Barthropp (DOP) from the UK. I must say, I have never seen so beautiful images underwater. Thank you for posting, Phil: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?81172-Deep-X-The-coolest-accessory-for-my-Epic-yet

BTW, Phil bought the only DeepX that has been finished in gold ...and it seems to be exactly that in his hands :laugh:

 

[Johnny Friday]

Where are the images? Really would like to see them....

 

[Pawel Achtel]

Follow the link: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?81172-Deep-X-The-coolest-accessory-for-my-Epic-yet and click on the images

 

[Johnny Friday]

Follow the link: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?81172-Deep-X-The-coolest-accessory-for-my-Epic-yet and click on the images

I did, but there is only one image from the epic that is not very good....as it's loaded onto R.U. and compressed...and the other two are just from a snapshot camera....i was hoping we would see some nice frame grabs from the camera/housing/Nikonos 15? something revealing edge to edge sharpness and the "wow" factor.
...the link leads to a very cool post with what i'd call behind the scenes shots and one frame grab---again, very cool, exciting, but nothing in the frame grab that speaks of image quality.....at least that's my 2c.
...that said, congrats on the shoot.

 

[Pawel Achtel]

Thanks Jonny, there is a frame grab at the top. To me the image shows no distortions, perfectly flat and even image and high contrast detail all around. I love the shot. I believe Phil will be posting motion pictures and maybe higher resolution image can be hosted somewhere.

 

[Will Keir]

Awesome, how long have people been able to buy/user rebreather tech outside of the military?

I use the Drager full face mask on my megalodon rebreather and it is amazing very comfortable.

 

[Frazier Nivens]

Stills from Life is worth swimming

Stills from Life is worth swimming

Still from "Life is Worth Swimming"
Directed by Richard Hall — with George Bovell at Founders Park.

Thanks Richard for allowing me to post these.


Shot with my EPICX at 60 fps at 5K with a 14mm lens and a glass conehead dome.

 

[Ross Isaacs]

Awesome, how long have people been able to buy/user rebreather tech outside of the military?

There are many domestic closed circuit rebreathers available to the public these days which meet or exceed military specs. I believe APDivings Inspiration was one of the first manufacturers to make these available to a domestic market over ten years ago but CCR units such as the Mark 15 have been available longer which are ex military units.

 

[Will Keir]

Are re breathers extremely dangerous to use, or is that more of a myth than grounded facts/experience?

 

[C.H.Haskell]

Follow the link: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?81172-Deep-X-The-coolest-accessory-for-my-Epic-yet and click on the images

Is it just me or is this link broken? I am also seeking examples of IQ with the nikonos 15mm!

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Are re breathers extremely dangerous to use, or is that more of a myth than grounded facts/experience?

Its a FACT Will, for this reason you can't dive with a Re-Breather unless you are a Master Diver with no less then over 100 dives in open waters.

Some a more strict then others, it is also to keep in mind the mixing of the elements in the Re-Breathers, this is what makes it dangerous.

 

[Pawel Achtel]

Is it just me or is this link broken? I am also seeking examples of IQ with the nikonos 15mm!

Hey Clayton,

Frazier Nivens hi-jacked the thread and the entire thread has been removed. There is no shortage of trolls here.
If anyone is interested in seeing full 5k image that Phil captured with his DeepX, please send me an email and I will gladly forward his report to those genuinely interested.

 

[Frazier Nivens]

Sorry but thread wasn't "hijacked" after all..

Sorry but thread wasn't "hijacked" after all..

Is it just me or is this link broken? I am also seeking examples of IQ with the nikonos 15mm!

Hi Clayton, the link was broken long ago when Red changed their site around and the UW Bubble Blowers site was down and completely gone, nobody in our group could post anything for a while. I wanted to keep it going so I started it all over again.

Thanks Tom for your support. But finally for once Pawel is incorrect....

Best to all,
Frazier

 

[Frazier Nivens]

Hey Clayton,

Frazier Nivens hi-jacked the thread and the entire thread has been removed. There is no shortage of trolls here.
If anyone is interested in seeing full 5k image that Phil captured with his DeepX, please send me an email and I will gladly forward his report to those genuinely interested.

Not very nice of you Pawel, totally unnecessary.

 

[Pawel Achtel]

to clarify:

Clayton didn't refer to the original Underwater Bubble Blowers thread that was unavailable for some time and resurected since then.

Clayton was referring to the thread started by our customer, Phil Barthropp (DOP), showing his shoot at the Olympic dive pool with DeepX and Nikonos 15mm and sharing some breathtaking underwater images before a troll hi-jacked the thread by posting some (crappy) images of snappers. WTF? I complained to the mods and the entire thread was taken down. If the troll was someone else, my appologies, Frazier....

Let me know if I'm "finally for once incorrect".

 

[Rudi Herbert]

This is actually good, I have finally been convinced to stay away from this thread and Reduser for while...

Pawel is constantly calling names here, the last of which was qualifying Frazier's images as "crappy", and yet, he gets to complain and have entire threads taken down?! Oh lord...

Tom, TRUST ME, whatever I've shared here has never been to bait Pawel, I don't think I ever did stuff like that even as a kid. Whatever I've shared has been out of excitement, but ultimately, I don't own the images so I can't share them. But I have been allowed to share some technical details, that frankly, should be quite illuminating for those who are in a position to a) understand these concepts, and b) do something about it. I am not, unfortunately, an engineer or a manufacturer. God knows every few months I call or write people like John Ellerbrock, Mike Hastings, Paul Remijan from Fathom Optics, and beg them to build me housings and optics for new cameras and lenses. In my position, all I can do is try to enthuse those in the position to make things happen. Let it be known that I've offered significant financial offers to some of those people to undertake projects that I think have the potential to be revolutionary. Invariably, these people, nicely and respectfully, turn me down, choosing instead to go with safe bets. Which I understand and respect.

Thus, when something simply different, if not revolutionary, but merely different, comes my way, I get understandably excited. Sorry. I wish Pawel the best, I really do, but his system does not excite me, we were in fact discussing using nikonos lenses with a RED before Pawel even joined this forum. But when I see people daring to, FINALLY, do something other than putting a generic dome in front of a land lens, people who dare think: how else can we make this better, I quiver in my fins with excitement. Because, save for increasing the diameter of said domes, or the coatings, or Jesus H Christ, add extender for some lenses, our industry has not managed to produce a true optical breakthrough in porbably over 40 years. Shame on us, still struggling with subpar images with our 5K cameras and utltra-tetra-hyper byte hard drives and 90 cores computers, when Nikon managed to "solve" these issues back in the 1970's with the Nikonos lenses, and except for Pawel taking a ride on Nikon's ingenuity, no other bright mind in our field, has done a damn thing to move things forward. Sad really. Once again, sorry if all I can share is excitement, not images, but with that in mind, I'll stop posting about things I cannot show off.

 

[Frazier Nivens]

Pawel is correct I did post, the image was incorrectly posted to the wrong thread

Pawel is correct I did post, the image was incorrectly posted to the wrong thread

Pawel, you are correct, I was mistaken and thought I was posting that "Crappy" photo of the Snapper's to the UW Bubble Blowers thread and I am sorry that I posted to the wrong thread. It is my mistake and I was wrong.


I don't think I've ever treated you with that much disrespect as you sometimes show others.

Pawel, you were correct in that it was me that posted that image, I wasn't intentionally trying to hijack your other thread. I unfortunately saw the link, was interested in seeing your amazing images that your client posted and was trying to show differences in imaging, the Nikonos 15mm lens and then different lenses behind a dome port.

I would never call your images crappy. Is this a "Crappy" image, it was shot behind a dome port with a Canon 16-35mm 2.8 lens.

But if you compare the images, which one is sharper and clearer. Put them side by side and compare. Is one better than the other?


I don't really care about charts so much as I do what the image looks like projected on screen, if it looks good to my eye then I'm good with that.

I was very interested in seeing how your 15mm Niknonos lens looked, I am sorry that I did in fact hijack your thread, not intentional, thought I was posting to UW BB thread since your clients link was posted there. You are correct in your statement.

Best,
Frazier

By the way, here is that crappy image downloaded in low res to UW BB thread.

 

[Frazier Nivens]

This is actually good, I have finally been convinced to stay away from this thread and Reduser for while...

Pawel is constantly calling names here, the last of which was qualifying Frazier's images as "crappy", and yet, he gets to complain and have entire threads taken down?! Oh lord...

Tom, TRUST ME, whatever I've shared here has never been to bait Pawel, I don't think I ever did stuff like that even as a kid. Whatever I've shared has been out of excitement, but ultimately, I don't own the images so I can't share them. But I have been allowed to share some technical details, that frankly, should be quite illuminating for those who are in a position to a) understand these concepts, and b) do something about it. I am not, unfortunately, an engineer or a manufacturer. God knows every few months I call or write people like John Ellerbrock, Mike Hastings, Paul Remijan from Fathom Optics, and beg them to build me housings and optics for new cameras and lenses. In my position, all I can do is try to enthuse those in the position to make things happen. Let it be known that I've offered significant financial offers to some of those people to undertake projects that I think have the potential to be revolutionary. Invariably, these people, nicely and respectfully, turn me down, choosing instead to go with safe bets. Which I understand and respect.

Thus, when something simply different, if not revolutionary, but merely different, comes my way, I get understandably excited. Sorry. I wish Pawel the best, I really do, but his system does not excite me, we were in fact discussing using nikonos lenses with a RED before Pawel even joined this forum. But when I see people daring to, FINALLY, do something other than putting a generic dome in front of a land lens, people who dare think: how else can we make this better, I quiver in my fins with excitement. Because, save for increasing the diameter of said domes, or the coatings, or Jesus H Christ, add extender for some lenses, our industry has not managed to produce a true optical breakthrough in porbably over 40 years. Shame on us, still struggling with subpar images with our 5K cameras and utltra-tetra-hyper byte hard drives and 90 cores computers, when Nikon managed to "solve" these issues back in the 1970's with the Nikonos lenses, and except for Pawel taking a ride on Nikon's ingenuity, no other bright mind in our field, has done a damn thing to move things forward. Sad really. Once again, sorry if all I can share is excitement, not images, but with that in mind, I'll stop posting about things I cannot show off.

Rudi, this thread is for the UW Bubble Blowers user group, everyone, all of us enjoy UW imaging and without your comments and excitement it wouldn't be the same, I'm for one excited about when it's available imaging of your new technology and any frame grabs that can be shown. It will be exciting to see any new optics and I wish you the best in creating new optics and the excitement and imaging it creates. I wished Pawel the best earlier in a post congratulating him in his new well made housing, he is very proud of it and should be. Everyone here deserves respect and I hope for everyone to participate and show their imaging and share their ideas, gear, underwater moving and still images from their cameras. We all learn and grow that way.

Best to all,
Frazier