Underwater Bubble Blowers User Group Thread NEW

[Pawel Achtel]

Pawel, why no comparison shots with normal 6 and 8" dome port?

I don't have a 6" or 8" dome to test. Trying to arrange for one soon. Easier said than done. But, if you have a spare moment you can shoot a slanted rectangle (SFR)as described by Imatest and send to me to run through Imatest.

Is that a usa patent too, or just an aussie? ;-)

Full US patent. I already have provisional in Australia. Don't panic, Mike, I will have some business suggestions for you soon... :tongue:

 

[George Evatt]

Epic in-water shoot

Epic in-water shoot

Hi,

I posted a few weks ago about trying to trigger an Epic via the GIO sync cable using a Schmitt trigger as described in the Epic manual. We were never able to get this to work, however I have now had many emails to the RED service department who assure me it does work and I have spoken to several people who use this method to trigger the camera all the time. So we will just have to keep trying!

Anyway, I had the opportunity to shoot a Coke ad just before Christmas on the Epic. To trigger the camera in the housng we used a little servo moter (that usually powers on/off the RED one camera) to "kick" the record button on and off on the REDMOTE. It worked perfectly. This was my first time using the Epic and it was very nice! We were shooting mainly at 300fps.

Attached are a few pics.

Kind regards


George Evatt
www.coralseatv.com
Sydney, Australia

 

[Tom Hamilton]

John, Does anybody do any picture quality tests with those housings or water leak tests is as far as you would push it?

Those housings don't leak.

 

[Pawel Achtel]

Those housings don't leak.

Good to know, but this wasn't the question

 

[Rudi Herbert]

Pawel,

Gates are nowadays pretty much the professional standard when it comes to underwater housings, they are used by most of the subscribers to this thread and by many more who don't have the time to surf the web like we do. They are well built, excellently designed, and yes, when used with the (available) right ports and lenses, produce great images. Until you can say the same about your housings, and not just you but a large legion of users, then it would serve you well not to attack Gates, even if tongue in cheek, or anybody else for that matter. Gates has nothing to prove as far as I'm concerned, your much ballyhooed units however, do.

 

[Pawel Achtel]

Rudi,

All you guys are excited about is that their housings don't leak water. Big duda!

"Great images" is not an objective measure to anyone whith half a brain. We need objective data and images. However, correct me if I'm wrong, Gates does not test, does not care or does not want to publish any data in relation to quality of images obtained with their housings. Why?

Mine are just above a few posts ago. The proof is in the pudding. If you think that me posting images showing that my housing can resolve over 4k underwater and showing a proof is an attack on Gates, so be it. :001_tt2:

Like RED, I'm not satisfied with poor image quality of underwater motion pictures that the industry is happy with and I decided to innovate. Attackking Gates? By having a superior, innovative and economical design and even better manufacturing? Why not? Sounds like a jolly good idea to me.

 

[Rudi Herbert]

Pawel,

Gates was formed at a time where the seemingly simple task to keep a housing hermetic at all times was not the norm, though not the exception either, but lots of cameras flooded back in those days. Thus Gates' reputation was forged as housings that were indestructible and that never leaked, and for many people, reliability still comes before image quality, especially back in those days when we were all shooting SD anyways. The arrival of HD sort of coincided with John's taking over at Gates, and at that time I started noticing a shift towards image quality which was not there before. I was shooting on Amphibicams at the time since I had a pair of F-900s and that was the only housing worthy of that camera so it was a while before I bought into Gates again, but when I did, I was extremely impressed. If you've never shot the smaller HD cameras through their Fathom optics, you owe it to yourself to try that. The EX-1 on a Gates through a superwide Fathom looks NOTICEABLY better than the F-900 in the amphibicam. And though we're talking about higher resolution like RED, well, the images I've seen from Johnny Friday, Howard Hall and a few others using the Deep Red housing look gorgeous. As an engineer, words like "gorgeous, beautiful and spectacular" may not mean much to you, but for a great many of us that also make a living from underwater images, those concepts suffice when choosing equipment. And when getting paid by very satisfied customers. And when showing them off in the private confines of our homes with nobody but ourselves to judge our work. I think your imatest shots above likely refer to this 3D housing you're developing, but as far as regular filming goes, the concept of a sharp lens behind a properly aligned glass dome of suitable diameter, such as what's used on the Gates Deep Red or Deep Epic, and is used on most still camera systems, has yielded enough quality for many, many years and on a myriad projects. If you can surpass that even by a tiny percent, congratulations, but until you do, well, people will continue buying Gates and heralding their toughness.

....and BTW, I'm not "defending" Gates with any ulterior motives, I've never paid anything but full price for the several Gates housings I've owned over the years....

 

[Pawel Achtel]

Rudi,

For me an underwater housing that stuggles to resolve stadard definition quality, produces curvature of field, has huge chromatic aberrations and severe distortions is not enough and I really could not care less about the histpory of Gates housings. Things change. We have 4k and 5k cameras with large sensors that do not work with dome ports very well.

I managed to achieve nearly the same frequency response at MTF 20 in the corner of a 90 degree view underwater as that of a Master Prime lens in air.

I managed to achieve comparable CA in the corner of a 90 degree view underwater as that of a Master Prime lens in air.

If your customers are happy with what you are currently providing them, good for you. No need to take notice.

I'm amazed, however, that "professionals" tests their new housings by only ensuring that they are water tight. I'm also amazed that a "professional" housing maker does not test or/and does not publish any information about optical performance of their housings....the industry is about to change...for the better. and, I would have thought that it is a good thing....clearly not for you, Rudi. It may be a short-sighted thing to do.

You are also incorrect with your assumption that the images I posted relate to 3D housings only. They were taken with single camera and a single camera housing will be released soon and before 3D housing is available.

 

[Michael Hastings]

Had a chance to do a projector test of the Ruby 14-24 this past thursday. took it to one of our local rental houses that has a projector and is a good lens tech as well as owner of several sets of ultra primes.

His first comment on seeing the Ruby projected was "wow, that's gorgeous."

We then compared with the Ultraprime 14 prime

Three observations,

1) While both were very sharp and very similar, the unanimous judgment of the three of us was that if anything the Ruby was sharper

2) There was some noticeable purple fringing chromatic aberration on the Ultra prime, nothing really bad, but it was very apparent that there was virtually none on the Ruby.

3) The Ruby is par focal, meaning it holds focus as you zoom.


Although I had the normal Nikon version he didn't have a projector plate for Nikon mount, but I expect that the Nikon version provides the same performance.

The Nikon/Ruby 14-24 is a full frame 24x36mm lens so easily covers 5K on epic and will cover the 6K FF sensor when it is introduced. 14mm on 5K is equivalent to 11.2 mm on 4K.
Finally, the Ruby works quite well with our low cost rotary/friction iris, focus, and zoom controls and these same controls operate the iris on the Ultraprime range from 14 to 135 and the focus as well with a slightly larger friction disc.

 

[jim kozmik]

JUST wanted to say BIG THANKS....Jim KOZMIK here from Canada.. to my underwater film crew who completed and now aired our second National Geographic special called "DRAIN THE GREAT LAKES:..which just aired 7 times in the last 2 weeks..on air in Canada on Discovery World..It took 40 dives to depths of 300ft in Lake Superior..Rov cameras to deeper lake bottoms.Auto underwater torpedoes mapping the lake bottoms.RED in Aquavideo and Sony Exirs in Gates housings plus 2300 pound deep water Rov robotics got us unique features of the Great Lakes never before scene by man...Thanks to dive crew..Ralph Hoskins..Mike Robertson....Christian Cloete..all diving on Ap Evolution trimix rebreather units without a flaw..thanks again lads..onto our next Project Kozzzzzzzzzz

 

[Michael Hastings]

Sorry about the cross post, but I try to keep the Bubble blowers thread up to date for both the old and new:

Looks pretty simple. How are the focus and iris rings adjusted? Do you use the redmote in it's own underwater housing device or in the box as well? Or is someone on the surface doing all this? Some more feature descriptions before investing $6k plus please.

Anyone here have experience with this housing? If the housing leaks water resulting in camera damage, is there coverage on this event? Is the housing guaranteed?

These are not just FYI questions here, I will with 100% certainty be purchasing a underwater housing for the epic. May the best housing win.

Will, thanks for your interest.

The included controls for iris, and focus utilize a shaft with a .9" to 1.3" disc on the end, with a thick o-ring inset, which presses against the gear or ring on the lens (can work with cinema gears or SLR lenses) and as you rotate it turns the gear or ring. This actually works quite well - we have used them for PL style Ultra Primes, Duclos 11-16, the 14-24 Ruby lens (great lens) and it's Nikon equivalent with the Optitek Nikon mount and many other SLR lenses. Since they are pretty compact and fairly easily to take on and off (empty hole can be sealed with a small plug - 3/8"-20 - same as a regulator plug. So we can accommodate extra controls for different lenses.

You can get actual gears at about $2K per gear, and we have had customers set up Heden motors inside as well.

And mounts that allow electronic control of SLR lenses are in the works from a couple manufacturers (this worked very well with the Birger mount on the RedOne via a serial control circuit board that we make)

We have had an external underwater case for Redmote for several months, however the initial release of the Redmote was very low power (just a few feet range even abovewater - where the planned range was to be up to 100 feet, this was announced by Red and that there would be a power increase in later firmware) so it wasn't working reliably with the housing. I just got my Epic-X back yesterday, so hadn't had a chance to try with the big power inrease from the last firmware update a few weeks ago. We will be testing that tomorrow. (Update 1/17/2012) Red put out a new firmware release for the Redmote a few weeks ago that increased the power/range significantly. Finally got my camera back to test it and the Redmote in our small external waterproof housing is working fine through the backplate and even through the aluminum body of the housing, so I'm pretty confident the external redmote is going to be the way to go - see my comments in the post below on why I think it is much better to have it external)

I like the idea of the external case because besides added flexibility, there is also reduced risk. The Redmote has at least 23 buttons, so that's 23 seals and even though the seals we all use are pretty reliable I would prefer those buttons be in a separate case (where you are only risking the relatively low cost Redmote, rather than the camera) rather than in the backplate as on the Gates. If the wireless still does not work reliably then we can easily make the Redmote backplate since the CNC program for all of the buttons is the same. We also have a way to make it wired to the external case but that may require approval from Red for the custom cable. Although we have an external LCD option, I like the ability to have the LCD in the back of the housing which keeps it very compact - which is important for a lot of open water shooting. You can't do that if the Redmote is on the backplate. Since our backplate is clear and removable we can easily accommodate either and we will offer a lower cost acrylic version for relatively shallow work (75-100 depth rating) and a higher priced Aluminum version for deeper work.

As far as leaks, both AquaVideo and Gates (the 2 main manufacturers of U/W housings for Red cameras) use the same technology for sealing control shafts based on designs that have been proven since the '60s. I like and promote the X-ring double seals that we use on our main seals but truthfully it is hard to be sure that they are significantly more reliable than the regular o-rings.

I have been doing this for over 25 years (I started very very young ) and have made housings for approx 20 different full-sized pro cameras (Betacams, Varicams, Red, etc.); dozens of prosumers cams; and over 300 conumer cameras; plus specialized underwater pan and tilt for the Olympic training center; 7 underwater cams for the NASA Neutral Bouyancy lab; special cases for the Seal Teams; a couple hundred OEM housings for Panasonic camcorders that were sold under the Panasonic brand by their dealers: as well as using these systems as a camera op for every major broadcast network, ESPN, Discovery, Nat Geo, BBC, numerous island Tourism Ministries, commercials, feature films, etc. so lots of hands-on experience as well.

So I have a pretty good idea of what it takes to make a reliable housing - but sh*t happens and no manufacturer covers damage for high end cameras, and that has always been clearly stated in all of our warranty documents. You HAVE to get insurance, but all of the good, all risk production equipment policies cover water damage (although it is a good idea to specify that you will be using it underwater to make it clear). YOu have to realize that the risk of flooding a camera in an underwater housing is much less than the risk of water damage from falling into the ocean, lake, pool etc when shooting near them or from a boat, etc. so the insurance companies aren't as spooked as you might think. I think we pay about $1000 a year for $40K+ of scheduled equipment and $25K or rental equipment coverage.

 

[Paul Russell]

I just spent a week shooting with the Deep Epic #1 prototype in the middle of the Pacific. Apart from a couple of minor problems the whole thing went very well.

Glitches:
The Redmote on/off switch was a bit unreliable. I presume that this will have been noticed in early trials and fixed in the production model

The unit was still too bouyant. Nothing a few correctly placed weights can't fix.

The Redmote occasionally lost contact or could not find contact with the camera. This is obviously a Red issue, and I put it down to running firmware 2.0.5

Other comments

The Red can stay very cool in the housing, so it's ok to switch on the camera and Redmote as early as 20 minutes before the actual dive - in our case the moment from transfer from the mothership to the rib for transfer out to the dive. This was 700 miles north of the Equator, so YMMV. It also helps not to leave a partial vacuum in just in case you need to open the casing while on the rib.

As a design revision, I find the rearward placing of the Redmote somewhat awkward to work, and would have preferred it on the sloping top of the rear section.

The Canon 17-40mm lens is a bastard to focus. I found I got better performance using the 14mm prime and shooting in 3K. As the end delivery of the project will be HD this was optimal. It also helps to shoot at 48fps/1600ISO. But we were frequently 50m down in 10 metre visibility, so focusing on the Red screen isn't easy due to the low contrast. The focus distances given on the screen are meaningless.

All in all a good shoot and some results that I'm very happy with. Many thanks to John E and David at Scubacam Singapore for making it all possible.

 

[Ryan Canon]

The Redmote occasionally lost contact or could not find contact with the camera. This is obviously a Red issue, and I put it down to running firmware 2.0.5

This would be my primary concern with the Gates system at the moment. This behavior is known, and common, and RM is such a crucial part of that housing... Hopefully reliability improves with future firmware builds.

 

[Paul Russell]

It's very annoying when it happens and you're already in the water. It would be better if the touch screen was supported, IMHO

 

[Michael Hastings]

Redmote in AquaVideo external redmote case working with new redmote firmware release*

Redmote in AquaVideo external redmote case working with new redmote firmware release*

(Update 1/17/2012) Red put out a new firmware release for the Redmote a few weeks ago that increased the power/range significantly.

Finally got my camera back to test it and the Redmote in our small external waterproof housing is working fine through the backplate and even through the aluminum body of the housing, so I'm pretty confident the external redmote is going to be the way to go - see my comments in the post below #754 on why I think it is much better to have it external)

I just spent a week shooting with the Deep Epic #1 prototype in the middle of the Pacific. Apart from a couple of minor problems the whole thing went very well.

Glitches: snip:
The Redmote on/off switch was a bit unreliable. I presume that this will have been noticed in early trials and fixed in the production model

The Redmote occasionally lost contact or could not find contact with the camera. This is obviously a Red issue, and I put it down to running firmware 2.0.5

It's very annoying when it happens and you're already in the water. It would be better if the touch screen was supported, IMHO

As you say the red mote losing contact is a red issue and I suspect it will be a little up and down for the next couple months, but pretty confident they will get it sorted out.

As far as the on/off - coming in from the front with a control is a little tough because you have to have just the right cam, with just the right clearance, and just the right rubber. It is one of the reasons I wasn't thrilled about doing a red mote backplate (see my comments in previous post). However with the external case we can come in from the side, so it is a very simple bent shaft control that you can pull back and press in as needed and turn to slide the switch - and it is a very reliable way to do it i.e. the type of control that both Gates and AquaVideo have done hundreds of times with numerous cameras over the years.

Making the touch screen work poses major, major problems and Any controls that would provide significant capability would block your view so unless some way of making an extremely thick, pressure proof touch surfaces comes out I doubt if it will be feasible.
There are possibly some other ways to do it but I suspect they would be pretty clunky.

 

[jim kozmik]

So. Mike can I use the vertical rotary shaft with the oring. in my old Red Aquavideo housing for the 11-16mm tokina lense.. would this be better..kozz

 

[Michael Hastings]

So. Mike can I use the vertical rotary shaft with the oring. in my old Red Aquavideo housing for the 11-16mm tokina lense.. would this be better..kozz

Yes, and yes. Some still lenses have focus,iris, zoom rings so close together and same height that you may want to put a gear or thick rubber band (like one of those vacuum belts) around them to make them operate smoother.

Are you still thinking of the Birger control? If so I was thinking of having you swap out with the housing Frazier has been using since he will be getting epic fairly soon. IIRC your R1 isn't eligible for trade-in?

 

[John J Ellerbrock]

I just spent a week shooting with the Deep Epic #1 prototype in the middle of the Pacific. Apart from a couple of minor problems the whole thing went very well.

Glitches:
The Redmote on/off switch was a bit unreliable. I presume that this will have been noticed in early trials and fixed in the production model

The unit was still too bouyant. Nothing a few correctly placed weights can't fix.

The Redmote occasionally lost contact or could not find contact with the camera. This is obviously a Red issue, and I put it down to running firmware 2.0.5

Other comments

The Red can stay very cool in the housing, so it's ok to switch on the camera and Redmote as early as 20 minutes before the actual dive - in our case the moment from transfer from the mothership to the rib for transfer out to the dive. This was 700 miles north of the Equator, so YMMV. It also helps not to leave a partial vacuum in just in case you need to open the casing while on the rib.

As a design revision, I find the rearward placing of the Redmote somewhat awkward to work, and would have preferred it on the sloping top of the rear section.

The Canon 17-40mm lens is a bastard to focus. I found I got better performance using the 14mm prime and shooting in 3K. As the end delivery of the project will be HD this was optimal. It also helps to shoot at 48fps/1600ISO. But we were frequently 50m down in 10 metre visibility, so focusing on the Red screen isn't easy due to the low contrast. The focus distances given on the screen are meaningless.

All in all a good shoot and some results that I'm very happy with. Many thanks to John E and David at Scubacam Singapore for making it all possible.

Paul --

I received your comments via David, and want to say thanks for letting us know. We endeavor to make the best products, and your feedback makes that possible.

A couple notes:

Re: buoyancy. To put this in context for everyone, the system is designed positive with trim weights added for your configuration i.e. lenses, monitor, other stuff that you may be using. This way you can trim out the system precisely how you like it.

Re: REDMOTE Controller. We immediately looked into the on/off issue, and can't duplicate it here with our two REDMOTEs. We'll try again when we get your proto back.

As always, my $.02.

 

[Paul Russell]

Hi John, I'm not complaining and accept that it was the prototype version . The shoot was great fun and the pictures are excellent, esoecially considering i've never shot anything underwater. When the production model arrives at scuba cam I'll be taking it for another test drive with a view to purchase.

The Redmote on/off switch is too loose around the pole, so it slips after usage, making it ineffective. As the unit I was using was Deep Epic #1 I assume that I because it's already had a lot of wear and tear.

I know that you put some effort into getting that unit to me, And I am more than grateful.

 

[jim kozmik]

yes that might be the way to go....will the vertical shaft work with my heavy geared tokina 11-16mmm lense ..how much do you want for one..also FRASIERS HOUSING..i no it is going to be shelved soon..so how much would it cost me without the glassdome.etc send me private quote kozmikunderwater@gmail.com...kozz