Underwater Bubble Blowers User Group Thread NEW

[Johnny Friday]

As soon as the Canon mount arrives, going to take an L-series 16-35 underwater. Just wondering if anyone has experience with that lens, u/w or top?

Thanks all.

Tom, how do you control Iris on this lens in the housing? Or can you?

 

[Frazier Nivens]

As soon as the Canon mount arrives, going to take an L-series 16-35 underwater. Just wondering if anyone has experience with that lens, u/w or top?

Thanks all.

Great lens Tom, for UW, RED One or EPIC use. Shot the Tiger Sharks at Tiger Beach with this lens. Fast lens.

 

[Ryan Canon]

I've been putting a lot of thought in lens scenarios for Epic and Scarlet, and there are some pretty interesting caveats to look at...

16-35 /2.8 L is a 78 deg diagonal angle of view on EPIC at 5K 16x9.

16-35 /2.8 L is one of my favorite lenses on FF35 16x9, but it has a 97deg AOV. 78 wouldn't cut it for me.

I'd be curious to evaluate Sigma 12-24 /4.5-5.6 (101 deg diagonal AOV on APS-H 16:9). I ruled the lens out for still photos on full frame ages ago, but this wouldn't be using the corner junkiness that turned me off of in the first place, and that might be a cool option.

I'm working on a Scarlet budget, so 4k / APS-C is my personal interest. Sigma 8-16, approaching 109 deg, is pretty exciting. We've tested it on several still photo systems, and the corners hold up. I might even be tempted to suggest using this on Epic at 4k, but I'm new here and don't want to offend anyone

 

[Ryan Canon]

Johnny, as far as I know, that will have to be mechanically controlled. Housing manufacturers feel free to chime in here.

Um, if you have a Red Canon Mount Iris would be computer controlled...

 

[Simon Spear]

As soon as the Canon mount arrives, going to take an L-series 16-35 underwater. Just wondering if anyone has experience with that lens, u/w or top?

Thanks all.

I've used the 16-35 topside for filming on a 7D and it is a cracking lens but I've never used it underwater. I doubt I'll use it on my Scarlet as I already have the Canon EF-S 10-22 and I'll be getting the Tokina 11-16 and with the 4k crop factor they are probably better options for a wide lens. Still it is a VERY nice lens.

Cheers, Simon

 

[Tom Hamilton]

Just looking at the specs here, ryancanon, you are correct, aperture settings are specified on the camera. Don't know if that has been implemented in the latest Epic firmware?

 

[John J Ellerbrock]

RE: Canon Lenses for EPIC.

From what I understand, RDCC implementation of a Canon mount is brilliant for above water work. Iris and Focus are controlled through the camera. Touch the screen and voila! That bit instantly comes into focus. Iris is controlled through the REDMOTE (and Focus, too, if you like).

For underwater that has obvious practical issues. While the RDCC Canon mount will be supported in DEEP EPIC, controlling Focus and Iris via REDMOTE, while available, will be cumbersome (IMHO).

Comments please. If my assessment if correct, will you still shoot Canon lenses underwater?

 

[Tom Hamilton]

Yes, mainly due to the cost & weight advantages over PL lenses.

Ideally, ergonomically speaking, the grips would incorporate thumb-operated focus, zoom, and iris controls to catch/follow the fast-movng action.

Doing everything through the RedMote underwater might be, as you suggest, a little awkward.

Just my .002$

 

[Johnny Friday]

RE: Canon Lenses for EPIC.

will you still shoot Canon lenses underwater?

Highly unlikely i'd say for on the move EFP - ENG or whatever it's called....but run and gun I'd say NO. A nicely lit underwater stage or housing on tripod over a Blemmy's Nest--sure. But i'd have to say you cannot beat or easily get away from using traditional geared iris/focus controls via redmote/touchscreen or even side handle controls.....cumbersome for sure...That's not to say some won't do it and have success, but i think chance of that quick shot where you need to set iris quickly to capture an image of something happening quickly kill you and you miss more shots removing your hand from the housing and going to the redmote or side handle to access iris control.

 

[Michael Hastings]

RE: Canon Lenses for EPIC.

From what I understand, RDCC implementation of a Canon mount is brilliant for above water work. Iris and Focus are controlled through the camera. Touch the screen and voila! That bit instantly comes into focus. Iris is controlled through the REDMOTE (and Focus, too, if you like).

For underwater that has obvious practical issues. While the RDCC Canon mount will be supported in DEEP EPIC, controlling Focus and Iris via REDMOTE, while available, will be cumbersome (IMHO).

Comments please. If my assessment if correct, will you still shoot Canon lenses underwater?

As John says, currently the RDCC implementation has to go through the camera and right now thru the Redmote via the direct control (i.e. push buttons and wheels on the Redmote are directly manipulated through the physical housing buttons and rotary controls) that is available from Gates and AquaVideo. Hopefully Red will give us some access to iris and focus through the RS232 port which would allow electronic switches and controls, but we can't really count on it happening soon. Other users beside underwater would like it so it could be something that happens next week or never.

Although I am under NDA so can't say a lot, there are a couple of other options available and in the works for Canon lens control that allow direct electronic control similar to what we offered for the Redone Birger mount. In that case, controls for housing can be put pretty much anywhere you want. Realistically, electronically controlled Canon lenses via RED or other Canon mounts offer huge cost savings and much greater flexibility in lens choices since you don't have to worry about position of the gears.

As we move to 5K shooting, PL becomes even more problematic since most of the wide lenses commonly used in the Cine world from Arri/Zeiss, cooke, etc. won't cover 5K. The Canon L lenses are great on 5K and future proofed for the next-gen 6K full frame sensor. If you need PL lenses for Epic I would strongly recommend the Ruby 14-24 Nikon conversion. Tremendous lens optically, covers current 5K and future 6K full frame, and is a fairly compact zoom that doesn't create any housing or port problems. And BTW we are able to do a pretty darn good job of controlling the iris, zoom, and focus with the simple rotary shaft controls - not quite as slick as the pure compound geared controls, but very close and many thousands of dollars less expensive.

 

[Ryan Canon]

I was lucky enough to handle a functioning Epic M & Ti EF mount a few weeks ago, and Iris control is definitely functioning, as is focus.

Touch screen focus isn't something I'd use, but there are lots of strategies to get that job done. Momentary AF (using af-on on the back of Canon DSLR) is how I shoot almost all of my HD-DSLR video, and I would want AF-Activation at the grip on my housing.

How cumbersome using the scroll wheel on RedMote to rack focus turns out to be really just depends on its placement, and how it is accessed by the housing. Having to toggle functionality between iris, focus, etc on one single command dial would be a pain, but only if you only have one dial...

Ideally, ergonomically speaking, the grips would incorporate thumb-operated focus, zoom, and iris controls to catch/follow the fast-movng action.

You have this on Gates Deep Epic mechanically now. Some combination of DSMC accessories could also accomplish 2/3 (mechanical housing controls actuating pushbuttons and dials), as could some hackery. There isn't a right or wrong way, but the customizability of this system allows some interesting configurations in a housing.

This fear that using DSMC accessories in a housing will require all kinds of awkward reaches is an unfounded one based on the state of the design art of high end aluminum camera housing manufacturers. It will be interesting to see what these guys bring to the table...

 

[Johnny Friday]

i don't see anyone adding handle controls for iris/zoom....i see preston motors and a lot of work to get those to handles...this is not going to be something like the old Amphibico housings that had control of most those features via one cable plugged into the camera.

 

[Tom Hamilton]

Funny you should mention that Johnny, just got off the phone with Joe Bendahan at Amphibico, they've been bought out by Aquatica, and are now planning a Scarlet housing that incorporates the electronic pistol grips, as on their flagship product of yore, the F900 Amphibicam. I think they're a little late off the starting gate, but will be interesting to see their product.

 

[Johnny Friday]

Tom,
don't think it impossible, but lets wait and see....those cameras had far different control issues. Like i said, preston motors for all gearing....unless you are staying specifically Cannon and then not even sure how you access the lens via a hand grip....unless they tap into the side handle or cannon mount and then of course deal with red and see if they break warranty issues....i just don't see it...F900 and all the handycams all had built in motors and functions with as little as one external cable hooked up. I see a painful road to go down this electronic route...but, as an accountant once told me...there's no problem that can't be solved with money...so if someone is willing to pay, then i'm sure it can be built. And as you say....they are rather late to the game.....i'll be the majority of EPIC housings have already been ordered....via Gates and Aqua. Wasn't Pawel bringing a housing to market this month as well?

 

[Tom Hamilton]

All great points Johnny. It will depend on Red implementing electronic lens control via RS232 as Mike mentioned above, that may or may not happen, based on previous experience, as you point out.

In Amphibico's favor though, those Scarlets are flying off the shelves at an astonishing rate by all accounts, I guess many of the buyers will be using the more cost-effective Canon and Nikon solutions. Would certainly be in Red's best interest to implement and deliver those protocols to Amphibico, or anyone else who has interest for that matter, the potential sales bump is quite significant, IMHO.

 

[Pawel Achtel]

... Wasn't Pawel bringing a housing to market this month as well?

I am. It's kind of funny reading all the struggles with lens control...it will be soon a thing of the past

 

[Simon Spear]

RE: Canon Lenses for EPIC.

Comments please. If my assessment if correct, will you still shoot Canon lenses underwater?

Hi John

I'm not sure what the percentage breakdown is for Epic PL/EF mounts, but seeing the number of Scarlets about to ship with Canon mounts (90%?) I'd say the majority of Scarlet underwater users will be looking to use Canon EF lenses.

Cheers, Simon

 

[Frazier Nivens]

Canon Lenses UW, it's the best choice for UW use, I had a PL mount Ruby lens on an EPIC UW and the geared controls were fine but the housing was so front heavy with a glass port we had to have a buoyancy tube at the front of the housing to compensate. Wonderful lens but made the housing so nose heavy.

Been shooting Canon lenses UW with my RED One with full Iris and focus control for a while and love it.

 

[John J Ellerbrock]

Canon Lenses UW, it's the best choice for UW use, I had a PL mount Ruby lens on an EPIC UW and the geared controls were fine but the housing was so front heavy with a glass port we had to have a buoyancy tube at the front of the housing to compensate. Wonderful lens but made the housing so nose heavy.

Been shooting Canon lenses UW with my RED One with full Iris and focus control for a while and love it.

Frazier, what lenses are you shooting? And I presume the Birger Mount with Mike's electronic interface?

 

[Michael Hastings]

Funny you should mention that Johnny, just got off the phone with Joe Bendahan at Amphibico, they've been bought out by Aquatica, and are now planning a Scarlet housing that incorporates the electronic pistol grips, as on their flagship product of yore, the F900 Amphibicam. I think they're a little late off the starting gate, but will be interesting to see their product.

It will also be interesting to see how they implement that since with all of the betacam, HDcam, etc. products it was easy to do lens control because both Canon and Fujinon broadcast lenses had simple potentiometer based controls for iris, focus, and zoom - and for camera control Sony ALWAYS had wired remote control boxes that were easy to convert for housing use. None of that is true for Red camera or lenses so far (except to some extent the Birger mount and controller we did).

In addition, the much smaller 2/3" sensors meant that one lens could cover all your needs from super wide to macro since even the superwides had 8x and 10x zoom ranges with F1.8 max aperture (starting at over 100 degrees diagonal and going to medium telephoto -they are now up to 14x starting at 4.5mm. Even the old 10x would be equivalent to about a 10-100mm zoom on a Red camera, which would be massive even if it was a couple stops slower.

So I'm not sure that product or expertise translates all that well to what we are doing with Red cameras, and I wouldn't expect anything like that kind of implementation for a very long time. I think you will see 6K and maybe the 9K Monstro Red cameras before that happens.