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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Underbidding :)

Gunleik Groven

Gunleik Groven

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So here I am, doing some dealing with a feature project, and the fun part is that I am totally underbid. You know, to the level that I really cannot compete. And guess what, it's not some RED dude with a cam he cannot emply, doing this, but Panavision UK.

Thing is, I do NOT feel hurt. BUT I'd rather like to pit the Genesis against RED in my own test. You know... Just for fun. And what really annoys me, is that I cannot get to that. NOT that they chose Panavision, which I am sure is a good choice.

Question:
Does that make me a RED defaitist?

G
 
That's the nature of the rental business, especially when competing with a company with a LOT of cameras on the shelves. Even a hyper-expensive camera like the Genesis has probably already started to earn back its costs after two years of rentals, so at this point, deals are more likely than before. But sometimes a company will even eat the costs by underbidding, just to get the job, for whatever reasons (lens rental & accessories alone may make up for the most lost on underbidding the camera.)

But I am a little surprised that a Genesis package could even come close to being as cheap to rent as a RED package -- you're talking about a camera that normally rents for $3000/day for just the camera itself.
 
I know...

That's the fun part.
The thing is: I cannot come close to them in equipment. I Think I can pass them on workflow and total cost, though.

Doesn't matter, really. As they are underbidding me on basics. Really like it actually :)
 
I do not know what is cost of Genesis to rent but give you for the illustration and comparison the rent

prices of Arriflex D-21 Camera System, Sony F35 HD Cinealta Camera System and Red One Camera System

taken from Clairmont Camera:

1. Arriflex D-21 Camera System

Includes:
* Arriflex D-21 Camera
* Swingover Finder
* Balance Plates: Top and Bottom
* Support Rods 17" and 8"
* Low Bridge Lens Support
* 12" Extension Eyepiece
* Astro 6" HD Waveform/Picture monitor
* Sony SRW-1 Recorder
* SRPC-1 HD Processor
* Low Mode Bracket w/Handle - OPTIONAL
* Steadicam Viewfinder Cover Plate - OPTIONAL
* Low Mode Dovetail - OPTIONAL

Daily Rental Rate: USD $3,000.00


2. Sony F35 HD Cinealta Camera System

Includes:
* Sony F35 HD Cinealta Camera
* SRW 1 Recorder
* Assistants Remote Panel
* Color Electronic Finder
* Balance Plates: Top and Bottom
* Support Rods 17" and 8"
* Low Bridge Lens Support
* 2 x 14 Volt Block Batteries

Daily Rental Rate: USD $3,000.00

SRPC-1 HD Processor.......USD $500.00



3. Red One Camera System

Includes:

• Red One Camera
• Red-EVF™ High Resolution Viewfinder
• Balance Plates (top 15mm)
• Support Rods (19mm & 15mm)
• Universal Mount (19mm)
• 7" LCD Red Pro
• Flash Card (8GB)
• Raid Drive
• 2 14.8v Lithium-Ion Battery
• 1 - 14.8v Lithium-Ion Battery
Charger

Daily Rental Rate: $800.00
 
Very interesting.

Panavision here in TO will not rent their gear to you if you are shooting RED, which has created a huge amount of business for some other rental houses in the city.

Bad move, because I only see Panavision when I do a film job now. They probably missed out on at least 15 days from me this year where I was looking for everything but the body. Probably double that next year.

In the mean time I purchased a head, filters,etc. And now, if they decide to change their policy, they will only get a lens rental - maybe.

Because now I have formed good "RED" relations with other rental houses who are investing in high end glass (Master Primes, etc).

I certainly didn't expect that Panavision would start renting what would normally be a $3000/day camera for $500.

Interesting times!
 
Dylan Macleod said:
Very interesting.

Panavision here in TO will not rent their gear to you if you are shooting RED, which has created a huge amount of business for some other rental houses in the city.

Bad move, because I only see Panavision when I do a film job now. They probably missed out on at least 15 days from me this year where I was looking for everything but the body. Probably double that next year.
Click to expand...

Same here in western Canada. I have had a hard time understanding the logic on Panavisions part on this policy. It has hurt a few red rentals a little though but in the long run will not slow red entering the market that much. Reds poor post workflow has been a much bigger road block then Panavisions policy.
 
hi gunleik,

had this issue (on a much lower professional level, just a PR-film) 3 years ago. Guess what came out? Both the dumping-company and the client were VERY unhappy after finishing the project. The client because the producer didn't deliver what they had expected, the producer because the client forced them to spend more money than they had calculated.

Usually it's not my style, but in that case, when I heard of the outcome, I opened a bottle of wine to cheer those losers.

Best,

Fritz

PS Do you have snow in Norway, too? Here in the Alps it's fantastic!
 
Fun thing here is: I don't mind. :)

I am not into the rental business as such, so I don't really care too much.
BUT I cannot really see Panavision making any money out of this.
That's kind of funny. To me ;)

And I'd like to do an A/B with Genesis. That opportunity actually came closer.

Pana must do their thing, and I don't care too much. And: Yep, it's the Genesis. And I actually hope the production will be happy with their choice. I really wish them all the best.

But I find it rather funny, I have to say.
 
Well, in this case, it was impossibe to meet the underbid. In a sense I am pretty comfortable that they lose money on the deal. Which on the other hand is a bit worrying...
 
Panavision seems to be a rental company.
It doesn't matter if she has it's own Genesis cameras, Red cameras, or Arri cameras, and what accessories.
She will always make more or less the same money.
If not, this will not depend on Genesis vs Red performance, nor the quality-price ratio of either one. She is not obliged to be extremely compeitive, if at all, in camera making.
The fact that she also makes the cameras she has is just a neglegible detail, since they only make money with rentals ,that is their business.
You should let her survive.
And she should let the others stay too.
It is ony fair. Better not to be obsessed with competition. A little competition is good. Too much is only consuming for everybody. Who does not understand it, only has to... understand it: I think it is not a very difficult task.

By the way, Red is not a rental company.
The two do not compete in the same field.
 
I think if you compare the camera package alone, it doesnt make sense. But it maybe make sense if Panavasion package the whole things together and make a good deal with them ? Does your package comes with the rest of the equipments like lighting..etc, gunleik ?
 
They know it's coming so they're trying to squeeze every dollar before they bury them. If RED hasn't put a dent in them imagine what EPIC is going to do?
 
A Red owners ability to compete with a rental company as big as Panavision is very limited. On the last film I worked on we had: 1 camera (Red1) body, 1 monitor, 2 down converters, 1 viewfinder and 1 drive replaced. Not to mention the amounts of various batteries with chargers sticks and heads we had. More so we could call up a big rental company any time of the day for support and get equipment delivered to the most remote of locations.

An individual would most likely not have that much gear to offer in the first place or as a trouble shoot during a long job nor the ongoing support.

Unfortunately/fortunately the big companies offer far more than just a camera body or even a very well kitted Red package.
 
Red Rentals

Red Rentals

Hi,
In India RED Package with Zeiss Standard Primes are being offered at a rate of USD500 per day...maybe less if days of shoot are more....:waaa:
HS
 
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