UHDV, 240 fps and HDR with Red Epic?

[Henri H]

Will there be a RED camera with the following specs?
resolution: 7680 × 4320
frame rate: 240 fps
HDRx: yes
Compression ratio: 1:1...3:1

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Non of this is realistic as of now... especially the 240 fps.
Best option you have is to merge a few Epics to shoot different parts of the image and then put them together to create a 7,5K image.

But then again, what hardware to process this do you have? And how realistic is delivery to a TV that surpass 4K which hasn't even become a standard yet.

Also, I'm curious to know how much money you think you need to spend to be able to do what you want and process it all to delivery. And what type of delivery media are you looking at?

 

[Craig Schober]

is this a serious question or are you just trying to publish the most outlandish specs for the most expensive project that will never materialize? or maybe it will materialize in about 5 years but by then will anyone (including yourself) really care about 5tb drives and 240fps when 10tb drives and 360fps are right around the corner? big budget movies only exist to profit. how do you see any studio profiting from something so overkill for no perceivable (by an audience) reason?

 

[IAN SUN]

You Trolling, right?

 

[Dan Kanes]

You should definitely buy a 65mm camera, and a scanner that can take the film.

BTW : you should get your eyes checked if you like that HdR image you linked to. I'm seriously concerned about your health. You must have lost all sense of taste.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Henri H, did you even watch the clip you were linked to?

NHK is building these prototypes for testing, and hope to transmit the first UHDTV 8K test in 2020.

For comparison NHK showed the first 1080i HDTV images in 1979, and began regular broadcast in 1991. Twenty years later I think you'll find that broadcast is still predominantly in older standard definition. (Even HD stations still broadcast SD)

When you look at Baraka and other films scanned at 8K ... you need to understand that the films don't actually resolve that level of detail ... its oversampling to deliver a 4K master ... and that is then delivered to BluRay as 1080p ... you can't see more than 1080 lines in 1080p - so you are looking at 1/16th the scan resolution, and more realistically 1/4 of the actual deliverable film resolution.

I expect we'll have cameras capable of delivering 8K before NHK gets its test broadcast done.

On another note - let's ahve a look at HDTV today. How many people are very satisfied with upscaled DVD on their HDTVs? A VERY large amount. How many can not tell the difference between 720p and 1080p when side by side on 50 or 65 inch HDTVs? An enormous number - the vast majority of people can't see the difference between 720p and 1080p in motion, though many of those same people can see the difference if you take time to examine still images.

8K is coming. 5K footage from Epic will look good on those displays. When 8K finally arrives, I think finally most broadcast will finally be in 720p or 1080i. I think we are more likely to see 1080/60p emerge as a broadcast standard over the next decade than we are to see 8K.

Also ... 4K is an important step and probably one that will put real 8K broadcast into the 2030 or later time. I think we'll have 4K/60p before we see many if any 8K commercial broadcasts.

So ... in summation you question is pointless today. Ask again in 2015.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

I think there should be 5 terabyte hard disk drives in 2012. According to Wikipedia, 60 minutes of uncompressed UHDV (60 fps) will need 12 terabytes of space. If the frame rate is 240 fps, then it should take 48 terabytes per hour.

I have heard that even 8K/UHDV is not over the top, if one wants a similar (or better) picture quality than in 65 mm films.

Here you can find a 8K monitor. Those are not on the market yet, but meanwhile the film could be played on 1080p and 4K monitors and projectors...



If the movie company buys 100 of those 5 TB HDDs, then there should be about 10 hours of disk space for the movie production. If one 5 TB HDD costs something like $150, then one hundred of them cost $15,000. That's not too bad a price when it is for a big budget ($1,000,000+) movie.

So you are involved in such a large project for 2012?
You are asking your questions like you are going to use this next year, but I know for a fact that not even the techdeveloping directors like James Cameron would even move close to this in the coming years.
The UHDV of today and next year is in it's very early experimentation stages. Technological advancements happen by demand of the public and if people demand 8K it will happen, but they aren't even demanding 4K yet let alone 1080p in some countries. So from a business end NO ONE will see a profit in working at those resolutions, period.

You just run the numbers in your head but you haven't even figured out how to play such footage, storage is one thing but how do you work with it? What type of hardware, what type of software, what type of bandwidth, cables, computers and finishing tools would you use?

Your question and speculations about this being true next year just shows that you need to study more about digital cinema technology and how it works. Your best option is to shoot 65mm film and scan it in 8K and work with that, it probably gives you the best quality for now and next year... but because you seem a little lost in how this technology works, I seriously doubt that you have the money or means to be able to work with this...

Unless you have a production backed up by a studio that gives you the option to work with cameras and post production process that directors like Christopher Nolan only have the ability to use a fraction of in his movies.

Again, the numbers doesn't mean anything, how do you suppose to stream the 8K footage from those hundred 5TB disks? I'm very interested in your answer on the whole post production workflow for this.

 

[Fabricio Morato]

Hi,

I'm with Alexander on this one... the 8k monitor is just a prototype...and theres a long way until it gets into production (and not only in the technology side)...
my bet is that Red will be delivering the firsts affordable 8k resolutions cameras in a few years...so just wait.. right now you have 5k which is beyond great! 8k will came eventually...just hold on...

 

[Erik Franzén]

FYI, an 8K scan does not measure 8K in measurable resolution. 65mm film is prohibitively expensive to the point where even directors like Christopher Nolan cannot justify it for entire movies, despite noting the will to do so. So, if you are serious and just not another troll, then I suggest you look at the numbers again and realize that something like EPIC-M/X will very likely give you those kinds of images you want.

So far, I know of no production worthy camera that shoots 8K and measures up to that, let alone at 240fps so I question somewhat that you can "want" that without knowing how it actually looks...

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Realistically, there are a couple digital options on the near horizon. RED preemptively announced larger-sensor models of EPIC, like the 645 (6x4.5 medium format equivalent) with a 9K sensor. This would fall in between 65mm and 70mm -- about 12% smaller frame size than 70mm 15-perf IMAX. And comparable, if not better, measurable resolution. IMAX are also working on a digital camera system of their own, but details are pretty thin right now. Of course, it's all speculation and we don't know if the EPIC-645 is still on the table (I'm thinking it is), but we definitely don't know when any of this will be available. It looks like the first of the RED "Monstro" sensors will be available sometime in 2012 as the RED Dragon upgrade for the EPIC-M and X. No details to speak of yet.

Other than that, Alexander and a couple others here have pretty much nailed it. Not much more to say... We still have quad-HD/SHD at ~4K to worry about in the near future. NHK is currently leading the charge for 8K/UHD and it seems they have most of the big electronics manufacturers (at least the Japanese ones) onboard. They want to begin trial broadcasts by 2020.

 

[Peter Nevedal]

http://www.kinor.ru/en/products/camera/dc8k/

8200x6400
1-200fps
High Dynamic Range sensor
18-20 FSTOP
Super Speed 3G USB IO
2x3G HDSDI
Uncompresed Recording

TRY THIS. )

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

I'm not sure how to say this without offending, do you really think that looks good? Or is it just a specific look you need to get for a certain project?


But... If that's what you're into, go for it.

Hmmm ... I think that looks good. Its not a look I'd pick for a lot of shots, but its a good look.

It's an ugly shot of an ugly thing ... and there is beauty in that.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

What clip?

The one you linked to in your second post in this thread. Let me recapitulate:

...

I have heard that even 8K/UHDV is not over the top, if one wants a similar (or better) picture quality than in 65 mm films.

Here you can find a 8K monitor. Those are not on the market yet, but meanwhile the film could be played on 1080p and 4K monitors and projectors...

 

[Dan Kanes]

Hmmm ... I think that looks good. Its not a look I'd pick for a lot of shots, but its a good look.

It's an ugly shot of an ugly thing ... and there is beauty in that.

You are kidding right? Are we looking at the same picture?

Are you by any chance a fan of Thomas Kinkade paintings as well?

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

You are kidding right? Are we looking at the same picture?

I assume so.

I should be clear ... I don't think much of the shot or the subject matter. I had forgot it, so I had to go look again.

I'm talking about the look. Its an ugly look .... and it suits the subject. I mean that's a pretty hideous stand set in an unappealing location.

Sometimes the best picture you can take is an ugly one. So I was serious.

That said ... I'd have used a more dynamic composition and tried to create depth in the frame. <shrug> Its what it is.

Are you by any chance a fan of Thomas Kinkade paintings as well?

Ha ... never seen that artist before. It's painfully boring work IMO. Like the linked picture the composition is so prosaic I almost fell asleep after I hit return on my google search.

It has an interesting look though. I can see some stories - perhaps an honest retelling of Grimm's Fairy Tales - using a look inspired by that with a little of modern grit thrown in. Something that looks candied at first, but on closer inspection is a bit grimy and disturbing.

Hmmm ... I guess in the end I'm really trying to subvert the look rather than use it.

I can see Kinkade's appeal. A lot of modern art is too challenging, too thoughtful. Its often distressed or distressing - a reflection of the artists pain. Sometimes people want a saccharin scene to forget themselves in. Sort of like a Norman Rockwell in mood- but less insightful or evocative.

Insofar as composition is part of the look ... oh, I almost fell asleep again, what was I writing about?

Seriously, lately I've been less interested in rejecting a look and more interested in figuring out what stories it would work for.

So ... what kind of artist do you want to be? The kind that turns their nose up at everything, or the kind that tries to see what it was that inspired or drove the creator of a work ... and to see if that understanding can take you somewhere new?

 

[paulherrin]

that's not a unique look, that's what every picture looks like when someone first discovers HDR in photoshop... and squeezes everything in.

don't believe me? try a search for hdr photography

 

[Jarek Zabczynski]

I can understand the 8K resolution, but why would anyone need to record anything at 240fps for anything other than overcranking? Can the human eye even see that many fps? We have enough people as it is (me) clamoring for the preemptive death of 48p and 60p in cinema. 240fps for realtime capture and playback seems beyond silly.

 

[Kalani Prince]

can we just get Scarlet out first?

 

[Jannard]

Late 2012 or early 2013 you will have 9K at 48fps. Add a couple of years for what you are asking for...

Jim

 

[Aaron McAdam]

Hey Jim, I thought you weren't going to "Pre-Announce" stuff anymore with dates? But, I guess "late 2012 or early 2013" is a span of potentially 12 months, so you've got time. Heh Heh.