Tyler Middle Mount vs. Cineflex HD

[Peter Matthes]

In the next couple months we are going to do a helicopter to helicopter shoot and we have a choice between two available mounts.

Essentially we are looking to get beautiful footage of a new state of the art news chopper.

The first choice would be a MXed Red camera on a Tyler middle mount.

The second would be a Cineflex HD nose mount. It incorporates a Sony HDC-1500 camera and a Sony SRW-1 deck within the helicopter.

Besides the obvious difference in the cameras mentioned, their respective output, and the need for solid state media ... do any of you have experience with one or both of these helicopter systems?

I am interested in knowing the positives and negatives of both mounts.

Thanks.

 

[Peter Matthes]

PM bump.

Anybody have some experiences to share?

 

[Mike Yonts]

I shot some 16mm off a Middle Mount several years ago. It was a little scary to sit there with my feet on the helicopter's skid, with no door on the helicopter, even though I was of course very securely strapped in. When we got into the air I thought that something wasn't adjusted right because my eye wouldn't reach the eyepiece. Then I realized that I was just tensed up, and I had to make myself relax and lean my head forward a couple of inches to make contact.

Anyway, I got a great shot and managed to keep all body functions under control. You'll probably be happier shooting in your format of choice rather than the one that happens to fit in the thing on the nose of the helicopter.

 

[jonnycom]

I've been shooting a lot of Cineflex Sony 1500 in the last month and I love that system. I've been using both side Tyler mounts on a R44 and a nose mount on a Astar.

As your shooting air to air you would be fine with a side tyler mount Cineflex and that way you could fly a R44 and save a lot of money. We record into a Cinedeck and it is rock solid. Do make sure you have the upgraded Sony 1500 with the new hypergamma, it make a huge difference.

Also the side Tyler mount can be installed on any R44 in under 2 hours. The only bad thing about the Cineflex is you can't take it out of the country because of the laser gyros.

I used to shoot out the door, but once you use a Cineflex it is hard to go back

Here is a pic of a Cineflex on a side Tyler mount on a R44. I'll try to post some footage from last weeks shoot.

 

[Matt Uhry]

Any pan / tilt nose mount lets you shoot more angles ( straight ahead, straight down, and the opposite side than any middle / side out the door mount.

A nose mount is generally better, but more expensive, whether you can use a side mount successfully depends on what the shots you need to get are.

That being said, a really good pilot can safely do impressive moves in a chopper that can make up a bit for being limited to the side.

Fly Safe.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com
DP and Pilot

 

[Peter Matthes]

Thanks Mike. :beer:

That's interesting. I had not considered a feeling of uneasiness with the Tyler side mount.

I am assuming that an advantage of the Cineflex HD nose mount will be its ability to cover more angles. (straight down, left AND right, etc.). Plus, I would guess that it will allow the chopper pilot more room for moderate acrobatics.

 

[Pawel Achtel]

I shot with both: get the Cineflex. Much smoother and stable than the Tyler mount. Also, you can get a whole variety of angles with nose mount. Not many pilots can fly smoothly a choper sideways.

 

[Peter Matthes]

That being said, a really good pilot ...
www.mattuhry.com
DP and Pilot

The great thing about being in NYC is that we have Al Cerullo. :thumbup:

 

[Pawel Achtel]

...That being said, a really good pilot can safely do impressive sideways moves in a chopper that can make up a bit for being limited to the side.

Fly Safe.

True, I once shot with a guy who has 10,000 hours fly time experience flying choppers with cameras. Yes, he could fly the chopper sideways, smoothly, 30cm off uneven ground with side wind. It was scary as shit.

 

[jonnycom]

A Cineflex on the R44 Side Tyler mount can do straight ahead shots as well, you don't have to crab. I've been flying helicopters as well as shooting out of them for over 15 years and you won't go wrong with a Cineflex.

BTW Tyler make almost all the mounts for helicopters including nose mounts. They are working on getting a STD for a nose mount for the new R66 which will be amazing.

 

[Peter Matthes]

A Cineflex on the R44 Side Tyler mount can do straight ahead shots as well, you don't have to crab. I've been flying helicopters as well as shooting out of them for over 15 years and you won't go wrong with a Cineflex.

Thanks.

The Cineflex is what I bid the job with, so I am glad to hear this kind of feedback.

The Cineflex HD nose mount ... its shipping ... and a Sony 1500 and SRW-1 deck are only about twice the cost of the Tyler side mount with a camera.

It might seem expensive ... until you consider what the flight time is.

For the other three (land based) shoot days, we are going to use the Red.

 

[jonnycom]

Great, you'll love it. I would try not to use a SRW-1 if possible. Get a Cinedeck if you can, it's a great monitor and records Prores, DNX or uncompressed to SSD's and is one a few pounds. I've had a lot of SRW1's go bad in the air, I would have thought no one is using decks in helicopters anymore.

Here's a clip from a shoot we did last week. http://vimeo.com/20089454
And here is a clip from the boat of the R44, in 3d. http://vimeo.com/20090141

 

[Peter Matthes]

Get a Cinedeck if you can, it's a great monitor and records Prores, DNX or uncompressed to SSD's and is one a few pounds.

Great. Thanks so much for the suggestion. The Cinedeck seems like a great alternative. I will definitely check that out.

Interesting though ... This is from the Brain Farm website:

We have considered using hard disk recorders for the Cineflex, but when shooting with it, every moment captured is gold so we have decided to use the Sony SRW-1 deck instead. The Sony SRW-1 Portable Digital Recorder and SRPC-1 HD Video Processor form the first Sony full-bandwidth 4:4:4 (RGB) portable VTR system adopting the HDCAM-SR format (small tapes only). The SRW-1/SRPC-1 offer virtually lossless 1080-line high-definition recordings at multiple frame rates on the HDCAM-SR tape media. We have outfitted this with the SR motion card, which allows the user to under and over crank the frame rate from 1-60 fps allowing motion time-lapse and slow motion images.

 

[jonnycom]

Yes Brain Farm still has the SRW1 and just used it last week on a 3D commercial and also used their own Cineflex which is the only wireless Cineflex in the world. Curt directed and operated the Cineflex and got amazing insane footage as usual for Brain Farm. We did the stereo and are doing all the VFX, color and DCP mastering. The SRW1 worked perfectly on this shoot but I think a Cinedeck is in Brain Farms future at some point.

The SRW1 was the best choice at the time and is still great when it's not having a bad day, but now some of the solid state choices make more sense for aerial.

We are working on getting a Epic in a Cineflex, which will save over 65lbs without the SRW1 and 1500. We hope to have this operational within a few months.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

I should immediately apologize because it's not in the same league and can't be compared with those big guys

but this kit can be used for a certain small shots even multiple ones that can be cut later as a sort shot of invasion from air,

think about Alfred Hickok „THE BIRDS“, many other similar style aerial shots, etc,...

I just call it SJ.DRONE HD

And it would cost you about $2800 per kit included XAircraft X650 QuadCopter with the wireless control unit, camera mount,

lightweight HD cameras like a GH2 or GF2 (much better than GoProHD), wide angle lightweight lens,...

SJ.DRONE HD: The cheapest wireless control rig for a sort of bird-fly aerial HD shooting...(shot on 5DMK2 with 24-70mm f/2.8 EF zoom).

 

[Douglas Underdahl]

I hired Al Cerullo ages ago and he was fantastic. Experience of a liftetime.

 

[Peter Lyons Collister ASC]

I spent many years shooting from Tyler mounts and Continental mounts until Wescam and Gyrosphere and now Spacecam and Cineflex came along. Using a gyro stabilized mount makes things much easier.
The pilot becomes the most important factor. I would say there are only about 15 film pilots WORLDWIDE that I would want to operate with.

I have flown with Vietnan pilots who were great pilots but not film pilots. I have crashed shooting Vistavision off a Tyler Scorpion mount in the ocean and trusted that pilot enough to fly with him again 2 weeks later.

So Shoot gyro stabilized, use Al Cerello (and steal his Vanilla wafers when he isn't looking) He is the best in NYC.

Peter

 

[Tom Lowe]

Ron needs to put an Epic M or Epic X into the Cineflex!!!

 

[John Myrstad]

We are working on getting a Epic in a Cineflex, which will save over 65lbs without the SRW1 and 1500. We hope to have this operational within a few months.

Now, that sounds interesting. Top Secret ?

One thing not mentioned in the discussion about Tyler vs Cineflex is working conditions. If you want to shoot for hours you want the comfort of the Cineflex rather than sitting in the door.

We @ www.fuglefjellet.no is to shoot Oslo2011 Ski WC next weeks with 6-8 hours live Cineflex for broadcast each day, which would be extremely fatiguing from a door mount.

@TomLowe: I guess you`re eager to timelapse with RED/Epic in a Cineflex ?

John Myrstad - www.fuglefjellet.no www.vimeo.com/fuglefjellet

 

[Mike Prevette]

Funny I just had this conversation earlier today. IMHO Cineflex all the way. I've done a bit of Tyler nose and Side mount work, and they just can't compare to the technology in the Cineflex. A recent shoot I'm privy to just had to do a VERY expensive reshoot because the Tyler stuff just wasn't good enough.