Truth or .... False Color

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Suggest there be a clear marker whenever any monitor is being fed anything other than "normal" RGB images with metadata adjustment. Maybe a big TEST MODE graphic - kind of like the "rude" solo light on a Mackie audio mixer. The clients would see the graphic and not wonder what was going on - "they're adjusting something, we'll have the regular picture back in a minute" - and it would remove the issue of folks erroneously looking at "RAW view" and not realizing it.

Agree that the exposure limits tool should be based on absolute sensor voltages - its a tech check, there are plenty of other ways to judge gamma corrected middle grey.

Good discussion. I do think having at least two modes - basic & advanced perhaps - is worth exploring to increase the percentage of good experiences across the highly varied population of media creators.

Cheers - #19

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Whenever you come to Florence,

We go have a nice big fat steak and talk about this stuff!

Battistella

David,

I dropped meat some time ago. But I love Italian pasta, especially with porcini from the beautiful Tuscany!

Thanks!

Hans

 

[David Battistella]

Nonetheless, I don't think that people will be alarmed by a thin histogram when the picture looks bright and shiny on their 5" monitor while shooting at ISO 3200 with bulb and a match lighting-up a cigar. Don't let them shoot with unrealistic high ISO numbers no professional would ever use. Epic is not the 5D and does not need their "numbers" to compete in the market.

Hans

Totally Agree.

RED is also aggressively marketed as a stills camera to still photographers with the DSMC system.

Take ISO out of the equation with those folks? I don't think so. Just pick up a Nikon D700 or D800 and the exposure tools re the histogram and the "peaking" all at the touch of a button.
Plus, all of their clients understand that the RAW photo is the "beginning" of a process, not the "final" image.

Honestly, client freak out can't be the only thing that motivates this. It's a friction' professional tool and the shoot is step five in about a 12 step process.

Battistella

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

I do think having at least two modes - basic & advanced perhaps - is worth exploring to increase the percentage of good experiences across the highly varied population of media creators.

Cheers - #19

Yes!

Now Jarred and crew have to monitor this thread. I'm sure they are.

Hans

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

RED is also aggressively marketed as a stills camera to still photographers with the DSMC system.

Don't know wether this is the best idea they ever had. You cannot be everybody's darling, plus between the 5D and an Epic are a few bucks. Not the same market, I guess.

Hans

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

Suggest there be a clear marker whenever any monitor is being fed anything other than "normal" RGB images with metadata adjustment. Maybe a big TEST MODE graphic - kind of like the "rude" solo light on a Mackie audio mixer. The clients would see the graphic and not wonder what was going on - "they're adjusting something, we'll have the regular picture back in a minute" - and it would remove the issue of folks erroneously looking at "RAW view" and not realizing it.

Blair - as a New Yorker - I must tell you ... "that shit don't fly with me".

Seriously - STOP even considering messing up my monitor path. Sadly, I only have one SDI path to protect.

Monitor path needs to be RGB + "processed with R3D raw parameters" or LOG (with ONLY ISO & White Balance effecting) + 3D LUT or + CDL file.

THAT IS IT.

We already have the option to display TOOLS or not - it's a checkbox in SETTINGS>DISPLAY>MONITOR CONTROL (uncheck "Tools" on the right)

RAW view needs to go to be with a box of P-Tap connectors.

 

[Elsie N]

Suggest there be a clear marker whenever any monitor is being fed anything other than "normal" RGB images with metadata adjustment. Maybe a big TEST MODE graphic - kind of like the "rude" solo light on a Mackie audio mixer. The clients would see the graphic and not wonder what was going on - "they're adjusting something, we'll have the regular picture back in a minute" - and it would remove the issue of folks erroneously looking at "RAW view" and not realizing it.

Agree that the exposure limits tool should be based on absolute sensor voltages - its a tech check, there are plenty of other ways to judge gamma corrected middle grey.

Good discussion. I do think having at least two modes - basic & advanced perhaps - is worth exploring to increase the percentage of good experiences across the highly varied population of media creators.

Cheers - #19

Perhaps even a separate firmware for the two? Jarred mentioned a while back that they were considering doing something that separated the efficient user and the multi-mode user. By effecient user, I mean someone who uses a lean setup.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Perhaps even a separate firmware for the two? Jarred mentioned a while back that they were considering doing something that separated the efficient user and the multi-mode user. By effecient user, I mean someone who uses a lean setup.

Did he? Well, then I'm fine. Thanks for the reference!

Hans

 

[David Battistella]

No problem, the best vegetarian food in the world. It's truffle season and a friend just gave me a nice fresh truffle. Here is a shot of some fresh porcini we find at market. The last shot is fresh sage leaves lightly fried in butter.

Battistella

David,

I dropped meat some time ago. But I love Italian pasta, especially with porcini from the beautiful Tuscany!

Thanks!

Hans

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

Perhaps even a separate firmware for the two? Jarred mentioned a while back that they were considering doing something that separated the efficient user and the multi-mode user. By efficient user, I mean someone who uses a lean setup.

Slippery slope. One guys lean set up is too lean for another guy. You don't need separate firmware to have two trees of UI. Right now, you can set up your own menus with EDIT LIST function. Try that yet?

Personally - I think it's easier to improve with just a polish of what a few things are called and where they are put. A few more ADVANCED tabs like in the FORMAT drop down - that's my favorite recent UI improvement.

Forking firmware is a very bad idea IMO.

 

[Mike 'Fireman' Ross]

Make the EXPOSURE tool work like it should - (see #1) - and eliminate RAW view mode (see #2)

If RED would change these two things - we would be able to pull up the EXPOSURE "false color" tool anytime - and not disrupt the monitor path - and REGARDLESS of ISO - we would know what's happening at the top and bottom of our image at our exposure choice - in a much more meaningful, detailed way than the stoplights. And there would be less confusion.

+1000

Exactly as it should be.

Mike

 

[paulherrin]

18% gray is the linear value of 50% grey gamma encoded is it not?

maybe. course, i suppose accuracy problems persist either way it's referenced.

"middle gray is a tone that is perceptually about halfway between black and white on a lightness scale;
in photography, it is typically defined as 18% reflectance in visible light."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_gray

Don't let them shoot with unrealistic high ISO numbers no professional would ever use.

no. these are entirely useful for a number of pro applications, like setting up astrophotography... (i.e. lowlight frame averaging/summing/etc)

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

No problem, the best vegetarian food in the world. It's truffle season and a friend just gave me a nice fresh truffle. Here is a shot of some fresh porcini we find at market. The last shot is fresh sage leaves lightly fried in butter.

Battistella

Haha! German porcini can compete, especially when my boy is prepping them up fresh from the woods. Yummy!

Hans

 

[ericyoung]

Eric - you are missing the point. If you use EXPOSURE when you are NOT in RAW view - is does not work as advertised - the Purple and the Red move with ISO - when you are in RAW view mode - they DO work they way they should.

This must be a bug. For a variety of reasons I'm still on the last v4 firmware on my Epic-X MX, so I guess this was introduced going from v4 to v5 firmware.

I agree it would be good to be able to set the client SDI out feed so it wasn't affected by operator monitoring settings (but it should be an option as sometimes it could be desired for things like external recorders or test purposes).

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

no. these are entirely useful for a number of pro applications, like setting up astrophotography... (i.e. lowlight frame averaging/summing/etc)

Its unclear for me why astrophysicist want noisy pictures. ISO 3200 is only a meaningful ISO when overexposing it by 2 stops.

Hans

 

[Elsie N]

Slippery slope. One guys lean set up is too lean for another guy. You don't need separate firmware to have two trees of UI. Right now, you can set up your own menus with EDIT LIST function. Try that yet?

Personally - I think it's easier to improve with just a polish of what a few things are called and where they are put. A few more ADVANCED tabs like in the FORMAT drop down - that's my favorite recent UI improvement.

Forking firmware is a very bad idea IMO.

His response was to a comment I made that I felt layers of complexity lead to higher risk for camera/software failure. I think a leaner version of firmware is less likely to malfunction and cause camera problems that may require a costly fix. I'll gladly go for the leaner firmware if it affords more safety for my camera.

I can always load other firmware if I think I need complexity.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

His response was to a comment I made that I felt layers of complexity lead to higher risk for camera/software failure. I think a leaner version of firmware is less likely to malfunction and cause camera problems that may require a costly fix. I'll gladly go for the leaner firmware if it affords more safety for my camera.

I can always load other firmware if I think I need complexity.

I think your camera is pretty safe Elsie But again, you can build your own stripped down menu by using the Edit List feature if it makes you sleep better at night. I haven't figured out how to export and/or save one yet.

 

[David Battistella]

You see,

we can talk ISO, false color, exposure and that all we want, but FOOD is what really matters. HAHAHA

Battistella

Haha! German porcini can compete, especially when my boy is prepping them up fresh from the woods. Yummy!

Hans

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Yes Mark, I am aware that tools can be toggled off in the monitor control menu. On many of my gigs being able to send exposure reference information to all monitors facilitates set logistics. As you noted, that can backfire due to people not understanding what they are seeing - hence my TEST MODE graphic suggestion to alleviate confusion.

FWIW, the concept of the "exposure limits" version of the false color display being based on sensor voltages alone is fine with me - its a tech tool after all. Having to change the "view" mode in and out of RAW, upstream from sending out the various monitor feeds, is problematic and potentially confusing. Hopefully this will be relatively straightforward to implement. Now about flipping AND flopping the monitor images.............

Cheers - #19

 

[Mike 'Fireman' Ross]

Slippery slope. One guys lean set up is too lean for another guy. You don't need separate firmware to have two trees of UI. Right now, you can set up your own menus with EDIT LIST function. Try that yet?

DING

RED is a high-end tool for the total pro.

Any amateur rich enough to own will invest in the time needed to learn How It Works. If they don't, they'll throw it to one side and move on, and who cares?

And every pro HAS to invest the time needed to learn how EVERYTHING works on their tools.

NO-ONE needs a 'dumbed down' RED. IMHO. Waste of good development time.

The only thing I want, but don't have, is what I've asked for repeatedly; a 'dumb' but easy to use control box. A dumb Redmote, if you like. Not a mess of frickin dials and unlabeled buttons and options and screens, a decent sized box with decent sized analogue KNOBS, that you can operate wearing heavy gloves, VERY quickly

Six nice big analogue knobs labeled FPS, SHUTTER, IRIS, ISO, L LEVEL, R LEVEL. Plus three buttons - record, focus check, and exposure check - an exposure check that works the way God and Mark Pederson intended. That takes care of 90% of everything I have to use during most docu-style shoots.

(FPS should have a lock - push & turn to change it from 23.98. Hell, maybe they should ALL have push & turn locks)

Between touchscreen, Redmote, and side handle, we have several options to control the camera. But there are extreme shootings situations, which I fairly often get into, where none of then are suitable - such as the bottom of a volcano next to a lake of boiling lava I love RED but I HATE that there are no good options for simple analogue mechanical-style control of the basic functions. I'm seriously tempted to butcher a Redmote and try to build my own.

I digress; rant over!

Mike