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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Touchscreen Editing with FCP X...

David Battistella

David Battistella

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I thought this was pretty cool.

Now we can all edit standing up like Walter Murch and loose the mouse.


 
VERY cool. Watching this it does occur to me that this may be something APple had in mind when they completely rework FCP. Minority Report, here we come. :smiley:
 
Interesting concept. This system seems really ideal for on set use with several people hovering around the screen adding their input. However, after seeing this demo, I am wondering if using a touch interface to edit while seated would work. Seems like the arms would get pretty fatigued after holding them up for hours. I tried editing standing up ala Walter Murch, and found that for me, clutching a mouse while standing was the part I found most uncomfortable. I never could seem to find a position that allowed my arm to rest while standing, and it would tire after a few hours of editing. Makes me think editing by touch would only be comfortable while standing.

Also interesting was the point he makes about the interface changes with FCPX. The larger buttons caught my attention as well, and I have wondered if Apple has planned these changes in anticipation of new input strategies or eventual use of FCPX on iPads.

Nice find. Hope to see this in person, maybe NAB?
 
During the release, while the debate was raging I mentioned this. Now that someone has done it, I'm feeling validated. Thanks for sharing.
 
Looking at the size of that thing I am dumbstruck by one notion. Remember the wise-cracks that FCPX was the new iMovie? Well how about iMac grows up to be the new Mac Pro? That thing is big enough to house 2-3 Mac pros. :-)
 
Fun stuff!

Although I'm baffled as to why you need FCP X and a touchscreen to edit standing up?

Or why you need FCP X to edit like Walter Murch (who doesn't like FCP X)?

I mean, just get a desk that's high enough...?

Avid works great for me on a sit-stand desk - with hardware controllers for real tactile control. At some point a touch interface might be faster but we're not there yet.

I do enjoy my touchscreen laptop though (HP that supports pressure-sensitive Wacom and touchscreen at the same time - so I can pan around a document with one hand and draw with the other).

The only problem is that it's kinda straddling the line between portability and power. If I'm lugging around a laptop and not a tablet, I want a really nice laptop. HP made too many compromises to keep the price down to $1000.

I was always really sad that Axiotron's modbook never really took off - but then it was too expensive.

The sooner we get a tablet with real power (it's coming - whether Apple iPad or Android powered by nVidia ARM + GPU) - and pen as well as touch support (Samsung showed off a tablet that could do that) the better!

Likewise, hope that Apple or HP starts getting a clue and making really powerful machines that support Wacom tablet and multi-touch at the same time!

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
Walter is a bit miffed by FCP X. I was at the event in Boston when he spoke about it. He wasn't even sure which platform he was going to edit his next movie on. But having said that, Walter is someone who will take the leap if he feels there is something to be gained in terms of moving the craft forward. And if Apple listens to some of his suggestions (pretty sure he was in some of the early demonstrations of it, but was surprised by the final release) they could certainly learn a lot from an editor's perspective. But then we have to remember that Apple is targeting a much larger user base here, with some of the users not very experienced with professional editing. Anyway, I'm sure Walter will tinker with FCP X and maybe he eventually likes it enough to use it on a movie. I'm pretty sure it's not quite there yet for him to do that right now.

I will say though that watching that video did give you a sense of what future editing will look like. I do think it's going to be very tactile. Totally makes sense it would go in that direction. And with a generation now growing up on the ipad, they will already be accustomed to working that way.
 
Terry VerHaar said:
I am not at all sure that Mr. Murch would agree with your simplistic "summary" of his opinion about FCP-X. :huh:

A far back as 11/11, there are things he likes and things he looks at as possible future benefits. He also acknowledges that he has never actually used it. Here's the interview:

http://www.macvideo.tv/editing/interviews/?articleId=3318132
Click to expand...

I think it's possible to not like something while it's in its current state... while still admiring what its future could be. Which is the camp that most of us are in. I sure am. Think Walter's in that camp too.

Anyway, can you help explain the logical contortions required for "FCP X on touchscreen now allows to edit like Walter Murch" ?

I mean... when Walter Murch was editing on Avid or FCP beforehand, did that not count? And when did FCP X suddenly become the Murch Tool Of Choice? I think he just picks what works for him, which is awesome...

Can we get back to the more interesting topic - editing interfaces?

Anyway, to me, there are a couple of interfaces and paradigms for desktop work:
1. mouse and keyboard on desk (hated by most professional editors)
2. touchpad and keyboard on desk (kinda cool)
3. trackball and keyboard on desk (liked by some, drives others nuts)
4. wacom tablet and keyboard (most professional editors I know use this)

Then, physical add-ons:
1. bad jog/shuttle thing (ContourPro or anything that emulates keystrokes = sucks)
2. good job/shuttle thing (Avid Transport or JL Cooper or Lightworks controller)
3. Avid MC Color for 3-way color correction and dual jog/shuttle (surprisingly nice for editing)
4. for mixing, a flying fader device (Mackie Control, Avid MC Mix,
5. hybrid touch-button / mix / shuttle thing (Avid MC Control)

And:
1. tablet where you draw on the screen (Wacom Cintiq)
2. touchscreen (HP, etc)
3. speech (Dragon etc)
4. foot pedals (don't laugh!)
5. full gesture recognition
6. 3D pens (there are some fun concepts for storyboarding / animating in 3D with these plus projection / glasses)
7. head tracking / stereoscopic
8. Force feedback sculpting (try it - it's a lot of fun)

There is just a vast wealth of options... and different software works better with different setups.

Then you have the non-desk contexts - eg a tablet. In the field, or sitting down, etc.

To me the field / relaxed use is where the tablet becomes more interesting because a lot of the above options are just too bulky and/or won't fit on a plane.

But I really really don't want to lose the tactile aspect - and I also like being able to look at the full image while controlling it sometimes (which direct touch manipulation gets in the way of).

This is a fascinating and broad topic and one I love. Want to chat more about this, perhaps?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
Well, none of us, of course, can speak for Mr. Murch. What I took away from that interview - which was now about 4 months ago - was that he was interested in some of the concepts behind FCPX and understood where Apple might be trying to go. As one would expect, he seemed open-minded. He also, of course, embraced improved metadata, as that is a staple of his approach. And, obviously, his comments were just after the first FCP-X update and well before this latest one.

In any case - I think the reference to "editing like Walter much" was to his physical style. I once saw a video of him standing in front of a very large screen with FCP and he uses mostly the keyboard, rather than the mouse. Not touchscreen but it sort of looked like the video. I imagine that's all that was meant. But what do I know? :huh:
 
I have tremendous respect for Walter. You might even say I revere the man. I understand why he might be miffed. Apple wooed and courted him for his endorsement in the early days. It was that endorsement that legitimized FCP. He tried to remain active and gave them feedback only to be met with a closed door. Like many of us he invested in their platform and they let him down. But frankly, the more editing I do the less I care what other guys (Even big guys like Walter) like and dislike. I don't much give a rat's ass what they use or don't use. I'm curious because they may share valuable insight, but it is such a personal and emotional choice it feels more and more like rubber-necking at an auto accident.

It's getting better though, now that FCP is in rehab. It's going to kick ass. So says my gut. :-)
 
I am not one against change, but I am not a fan just for change's sake.

I have yet to see any comment that tells me WHY this touch method would be better. I edit reality shows every days and besides getting a good workout for my arms, I see not one way this would be quicker. Part of fast editing is about efficiency of movement, fewest clicks to do something, etc. This reaching 2 feet over to grab a clip and then move it 2 feet back into the timeline is ridiculous. This stuff is all neat looking, but I do not see serious editing going this direction.

I do see the advantages of touch. But to me, it will be more like a new input device. Think a keyboard-sized device that is all a touchscreen that then controls your large monitor. Yes, touch or swipe and the device becomes a standard keyboard. Touch or swipe again and it is a giant touchscreen INPUT device. This way, you would only be dragging things INCHES, not FEET across a large monitor. I bet Apple already has this in the works, similar to their touchpad.

Thoughts?

Kevin
 

Kevin Wild said:
I have yet to see any comment that tells me WHY this touch method would be better.
Click to expand...

Jeff Whitehurst said:
This system seems really ideal for on set use with several people hovering around the screen adding their input.
Click to expand...

I immediately envisioned an on set huddle around a touch screen interface to be pretty interesting. Nobody has to say MOVE! and take the mouse to show gain control of the interface.
Valuable input from Director, DP, etc. with less chance of offense to the editor or possibly reluctance to contribute due to fear of offense.
Jeff
 
New? it's really not new...

I know i'm not the only one to be editing with an Ampex Ace touch screen in the 80's... yea, that's right 30 odd years ago....

My fingers got tired wacking away at the screen, my arms killed after a day on that machine.... sucked then, may suck less now, but the ergonimics have not changed even if the sensitivity of the screens have

Same thing about clients thinking it's cool tho.. they thought it v. cool back then, but they didn't have to drive the thing for a 14 hour day

Gimme a Wacom 9x12 any day... that makes sense, real ergnomic sense

I was looking for a refrence and came across this discussion for the Ampex Ace & FCX... no one who has used a touch screen seemed to like it any more than i did... i was glad to see it's tail lights heading down the highway, any direction as long as it was away from me....

What that old line? Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeate it?

http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/335/12062



d
 
I don't know if it is better or if there are any real efficiency advantages to it at this point, but it just feels right. Using a mouse is kinda like using a rubber; you can still get the job done but you sure wish it wasn't there between you. Get your hands on some footage, maybe you'll see what I mean.

It seems perfectly logical that removing the middle man can only make things more efficient.

Kevin Wild said:
I am not one against change, but I am not a fan just for change's sake.

I have yet to see any comment that tells me WHY this touch method would be better. I edit reality shows every days and besides getting a good workout for my arms, I see not one way this would be quicker. Part of fast editing is about efficiency of movement, fewest clicks to do something, etc. This reaching 2 feet over to grab a clip and then move it 2 feet back into the timeline is ridiculous. This stuff is all neat looking, but I do not see serious editing going this direction.

I do see the advantages of touch. But to me, it will be more like a new input device. Think a keyboard-sized device that is all a touchscreen that then controls your large monitor. Yes, touch or swipe and the device becomes a standard keyboard. Touch or swipe again and it is a giant touchscreen INPUT device. This way, you would only be dragging things INCHES, not FEET across a large monitor. I bet Apple already has this in the works, similar to their touchpad.

Thoughts?

Kevin
Click to expand...
 
Kevin Wild said:
I am not one against change, but I am not a fan just for change's sake.

I have yet to see any comment that tells me WHY this touch method would be better. I edit reality shows every days and besides getting a good workout for my arms, I see not one way this would be quicker. Part of fast editing is about efficiency of movement, fewest clicks to do something, etc. This reaching 2 feet over to grab a clip and then move it 2 feet back into the timeline is ridiculous. This stuff is all neat looking, but I do not see serious editing going this direction.

I do see the advantages of touch. But to me, it will be more like a new input device. Think a keyboard-sized device that is all a touchscreen that then controls your large monitor. Yes, touch or swipe and the device becomes a standard keyboard. Touch or swipe again and it is a giant touchscreen INPUT device. This way, you would only be dragging things INCHES, not FEET across a large monitor. I bet Apple already has this in the works, similar to their touchpad.

Thoughts?

Kevin
Click to expand...

I agree. It looks much slower than a mouse input. Although the collaborative on-set huddle concept is interesting it would make up a very niche market.
 
James McLellan said:
I agree. It looks much slower than a mouse input. Although the collaborative on-set huddle concept is interesting it would make up a very niche market.
Click to expand...

His does look slow, slower than my iPad, which I also don't need to bang on to get a response. The tech has surely improved in the last 30 years and I'm sure that Apple's will be better still. Maybe the one in the demo will also improve in time.

I don't personally see this as a niche thing, but that is simply because I like it.

This may sound absurd, but if all you want is an incling of what it can feel like, try iMovie for iPad. Sure it's iMovie and it's irritating in many ways, and the screen real estate is limited but try it, just for the feel. Then imagine a screen like he's got; room to access much or your resources, a big sprawling timeline , the ability to grab clips with your hand instead of a fingertip and being able to grab your image to push and pull it.

Now consider that for each and every interaction with your project you no longer have to reach for the mouse, or any tool for that matter. The number of movements you save could be astronomical. How can it not be more efficient?

Hey if you're an absolute film junkie you could even lay the timeline out so the strips are physically the same size as a neg.. Trimming that bad boy should feel oddly familiar I would think. Maybe one day you can pick it up and examine each frame Like you used to, (But without moving to a light source) but now pinch or stretch it to magnify. You could go on...

It's akin to drawing with the mouse, and then drawing with a Wacom pen. Once you are dealing with the medium in a familiar way it begins to feel like it did in the real world, and you stop thinking of it differently. Stop thinking of it as computer drawing or editing, and start thinking of it as simply editing. It is THE aha moment.

That's just my opinion. Feel free to form your own. :-)
 
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Maybe it looks slow due to the Touch screen tech.
Ive been working with touch screens for the last year for another project.
Im on the fence on the use of it as day to day use.
I would like to try something more powerful with no latency using Maya :)
 
1) Working over a surface means covering the surface with own hands. Editing is a visual craft and content visibility and visual navigation is a priority.

2) Cursor directly interacts with the virtual object, finger touches the glass over the virtual object, with a spacial offset in between.

3) Hands in the air are more limited by laws of physics.

4) Hands in the air for a full edit session require much more energy spent on physical activity. Editing is an intellectual activity.

5) Lack of tactile feedback means more dependance on visual feedback just for control. Meaning less focus on content creation.

6) Precision difference between 1000-5000 dpi pointing devices and 1:1 hand movement, with precision dependent activity requires scale compensation. Scale compensation significantly reduces available workspace, compared to high dpi pointing devices.

7) Working long hours looking down means neck spine issues on the long run.
 
Yeah,

The much comment was intended to say that you wold pretty much have to stand up to edit with this, but your neck would be a giant mess.

I think touch will be limited to small tablets for quick stuff, but not for long days on the grind.

With the one screen (instead of source record) this is more akin to moviola than a KEM.

Either way, I'd rather have a virtual reality headset and a pair of "edit gloves" to move the footage around.

LOL. :)



David

PS; would I edit with this setup (NO)
is it kinda cool (for some reason YES)
 
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