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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Tokina 11-16mm

Sidney said:
remember guys 11mm x 1.5 = about 17mm s35mm fov. Thats the problem with using still lenses you have to add 150percent to your focal lenght...

The Tokina is the only "fast" f2.8 super wide option if you use nikon mount on RED, that I have found. Bought it yesterday. BUT a 15mm Zeiss ultra prime is still wider.
Click to expand...

A 15mm Zeiss pl is not wider than an 11mm Tokina SLR.

FOV/Crop Factor is determined by the sensor/film size in relation to a full frame SLR frame. All 35mm pl lenses must apply the 1.5 crop factor.
 
Sidney said:
remember guys 11mm x 1.5 = about 17mm s35mm fov. Thats the problem with using still lenses you have to add 150percent to your focal lenght...

The Tokina is the only "fast" f2.8 super wide option if you use nikon mount on RED, that I have found. Bought it yesterday. BUT a 15mm Zeiss ultra prime is still wider.
Click to expand...

I think the crop factors have you a little confused there Sidney! :biggrin: 15mm is 15mm and 11mm is 11mm, 11mm is considerably wider.
 
hehe game on... I hope you guys are right BUT,

the way I understand it... the problem is how 35mm film is run through still cameras and film cameras differs- "still film" is larger than s35mm "cine film".

Still lenses are referring to Full frame 35mm (in still land), but cinema lenses refer to s35mm (film land)-

problem with my post here is I did not take a 15mm zeiss UP and put it next to a tokina 11mm...only in theory after consulting a DP friend and shop where I bought the Zeiss ZF set and tokina.

So should Sidney admit defeat or should the people yield to Sidney?:)
 
Joel Kaye said:
All 35mm pl lenses must apply the 1.5 crop factor.
Click to expand...

Hi,

Any lens of the same focal length will have an identical FOV on RED camera, it's day one lens physics.

Stephen
 
I thought focal lengths were all measured the same, regardless of what they were made to clear. I thought the 11mm would be just like a S35 11mm on Red One, then on the FF35 sensors it would also have the coverage but remain an 11mm... the difference being that with FF35 sensors we'd have a wider FOV and shallower DoF.

I hope I got that right, cause I was starting to feel like I got it... I was just thinking about the new SGblade adapter which is said to allow to zoom your camera in as much as possible making the capture size on the ground glass smaller, and then turn around and zoom almost all the way out... Wayne claims it will in fact allow HVXs and HPX170s set up for FF35 sensor and if you needed it even smaller than 2/3. I told him they should start calling them sensor size modules... hehe...

But someone please correct me if I am wrong about the lenses cause I want to make sure I get that right.
 
On a recent job i was assure that i needed a 85mm lens because the position was verified 85mm on a red lens. On arrival the 55mm nikon did not get the same framing and i had to go 35mm red, so I am confused because i listened to the "a 85mm is just a 85mm" response. Not that i am happy i paid the $800 or so for the 1.4 85mm but there's something wrong in the explaination...
 
Heading back to new york city today where the Tokina should be waiting for me...I look forward to doing some quick and dirty field test with it and will share some results.
 
supernovafilms said:
On a recent job i was assure that i needed a 85mm lens because the position was verified 85mm on a red lens. On arrival the 55mm nikon did not get the same framing and i had to go 35mm red, so I am confused because i listened to the "a 85mm is just a 85mm" response. Not that i am happy i paid the $800 or so for the 1.4 85mm but there's something wrong in the explaination...
Click to expand...

This is still confusing for a lot of people, it appears. First of Sidney is WRONG..... Please stop making statements like this ;it will continue to confuse people. This discussion comes up every month on Reduser, and every time people are confused. A 85 mm is always a 85mm, however it will give a different Field of View depending on the recording image. Imagine a 35mm lens (asuming that this lens wil cover the 645 sensor) ; on a Mamiya 645 it will be an extreme wide angle lens. On FF35 SLR it will be a moderate wide angle lens, on a S35 or APS size camera it will be a "normal" lens, on a 16mm camera or 2/3 chip camera it will be small tele -portrait lens. So yes the 11-16 tokina will yield a larger FOV than the Zeiss 15mm. The funny thing is that the 11-16 covers almost FF35...... Ofcourse the quality in the corners is less, and there is some vignetting, but I was surprised to see that when I put the lens on my Nikon F3.

One more trick; an G lens like the Tokina does not have a manual aperture, and there is the Underdahl mount , however there is a very cheap trick to change the aperture on such a lens by depressing the locking knob, and slowly turning the lens in the mount. This will open and close the aperture ring. There will be no indication what aperture you are on, however it is usable.
 
Mick my confident Dutchman,

your statement did absolutely nothing to resolve this confusion.

Ofcourse a 85mm is an 85 mm and a lens is a lens and so on.

But there are several issues and you seem like the man who knows the answers.

My questions:

does the 15mm Zeiss UP give a wider fov than the Tokina set at 15mm?

since RED1 doesnt utilize the full sensor what are the crop factors for 4k16:9, 4k HD?

and are Cine lenses measured according the ff still 35mm film or 35mm "cine film".

when I understand this I will stop, hope you can forgive me.

best,

Sidney
 
15mm Zeiss and 15mm Tokina will have same result when both use in RED1 whichever format setting


José
 
Sidney said:
My questions:

does the 15mm Zeiss UP give a wider fov than the Tokina set at 15mm?


and are Cine lenses measured according the ff still 35mm film or 35mm "cine film".

Sidney
Click to expand...

Hi Sidney,

The 15mm Zeiss UP will be Identical to the Tokina set at 15mm.

Simple lens theroy, a single element lens will focus at infinity at it's focal length, that's all there is to focal lengths, there is no connection to what the lens is used for.

Stephen
 
Now....with all that jibbery jab being said....the Tokina 11-16 is the sharrizzle!

11mm......2.8.....$585......very hard to beat.
 
Crop factor defines the change in FOV between two different size sensors for a lens of the same focal length. 15mm will have wider FOV on FF35 compared to S35. Any 15mm lens will have the same FOV on an S35 sensor whether it was specifically made for S35 or FF35.
An 11mm lens will always have a wider FOV on S35 than a 15mm lens. The crop factor is confusing because it typically expresses FOV angles in FF35 equivalent focal lengths. A more useful reference would be FOV angle vs focal length tables for each sensor size.
 
I can confirm that the Tokina 11-16mm 2.8f is truly amazing! Combine that with the excellent Nokia 17-55mm 2.8f and you got a killer zoom set. I also got the Nikon 35-70mm f2.8 (used) but that has a bit of play and doesn't work well on my Red Nikon mount.

Here are some exports from RedCine (without color correction or anything, just a slight S-curve) from a Reggae-Music-Video I shot the other week where I used the 11-16mm & 17-55mm almost exclusively.

http://zinner.org/z/plogger/index.php?sortby=filename&level=album&id=33&n=0

These have been re-sized for the web, I can upload the full 4K images if somebody should be interested.

Mike

p.s.: I also had the privilege of using the Cooke S4/i 15-40mm T2 CXX Zoom at one point. But if you compare the costs of 500 Euro for the Tokina vs. 38k Euro for Cooke and the size and weight, I start wondering who can justify the extra stop on the Cooke at this price-point :) Cause to my eye the both have comparable sharpness (sure, I didn't measure them but still!)
 
ok - i just got smarter:)

one more question - what about the crop factor of the RED compared to s35mm film ? - since the full sensor size isnt used.

crop factor for 4k 16.9?

for 4k HD?

If this is basic math I apologize. I just want to know what lens I should use on my red if I want the same fov, as a 50mm on a 35mm filmcamera. (s35mm).

best,

Sidney
 
Sidney said:
ok - i just got smarter:)

one more question - what about the crop factor of the RED compared to s35mm film ? - since the full sensor size isnt used.

crop factor for 4k 16.9?

for 4k HD?

If this is basic math I apologize. I just want to know what lens I should use on my red if I want the same fov, as a 50mm on a 35mm filmcamera. (s35mm).

best,

Sidney
Click to expand...

It's still very close. The crop is pretty small. Red One's 4K is essentially Academy 35mm in width. You should be able to pretty much use the same lenses that you're used to on the Red and s35 film. But here's the math:

Multiply the size of each pixel, which is 5.4 microns on the Red one, by the number of pixels in each direction. This will give you the size of the crop. So for 4K 16:9 that's, .0054(moving the decimal 3 places to convert from millionths to thousandths) x 4096 = 22.12mm. Then, .0054 x 2301 = 12.43mm. So, 22.12mm x 12.43mm with a 25.37mm diagonal. Versus 24.89mm x 13.98mm with a 28.55mm diagonal, for s35 cropped for 16:9. This gives a Field of View crop factor of about 1.125.

So to get the same FOV as the 50mm in super35, you'd have to use a 44mm on the Red in 4K. This lens doesn't exist in any sets that I know of as a prime, so you'd either have to use your 50mm and move back a foot or two, or use a 40mm and move forward a foot or two. So, not enough to really worry about.

If you were shooting Academy 35mm, which is 21.95mm horizontally, cropped for 16:9, there is really no difference between this and 4K 16:9 on the Red One.

I'll let you do the math on the 4K HD.
 
Just to clarify my rant about DoF being affected by the zoom setting of the camera onto the GG, this does NOT affect DoF, easy to notice since nothing changes on the taking, it is only a crop so it only affects the FOV... After having that clarified today I had to slap myself in the forehead. Just wanted to be perfectly fair and point that out.
 
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