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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Tip for Making the Most out of RED's Dynamic Range Outdoors

How is this any different from bringing up the darks (or bringing down the lights) in a color-correction program like Color? Either the information is there or it isn't.
 
joshua csehak said:
How is this any different from bringing up the darks (or bringing down the lights) in a color-correction program like Color? Either the information is there or it isn't.
Click to expand...

Yes, the info is there or is it not, but simply put this allows you to effect one area while independently effecting the other. It is a very refined / specific power window. If you were to use just the lift / gamma / gain controls you would be effecting the whole image, and sometimes the amount that you have to adjust one area means that there are compromises in the other areas. Which is why methods like these are helpful-- they let you push all the individual areas are as needed. Clear as mud?
 
What I consider unique about this approach is to go beyond thinking of using the luma information as a key, but to look at each of the color channels individually to see which one gives you the best setup for a key. Most likely one of them will be better at isolating the elements you want to separate. Then if one of them is not perfect, or makes holes where you don't want them, you can garbage matte to clean up the key --which isn't a whole lot of work. Keep in mind you might need to feather the garbage matte.

Phil
 
In my case, more than half of the reasons we are all waiting patiently is 13+ DR, Bit depth and FLUT, then all of these tricks we do will fortunately be less frequent.
 
Enrique, I am a little confused by your point. It is the extra DR in the RED camera that allows us to do tricks like this. The extra latitude gives us the option to blend two different exposures in the same scene. More DR, bit depth or FLUT will not give you darker skies if you are opening up the iris to expose for a darker foreground.

No criticism here, just trying to get on the same page with you. :)

Phil
 
Okay. . . I'm not understanding this. . . are you saying we'd have to shoot this scene TWICE? How on earth would you do that with actors?

Stephen
 
No stephen, its two different grades of the same footage blended together with masks.

And it doesnt actually increase the DR captured by the camera, its just a way of squeezing it all down into a range that is more manageable for monitors etc. I dont think this is how they plan to do HDR with the epic - This is however how it is done on the Alexa. Different gains applied to the same image blended in camera. I know Graeme says this isn't genuine HDR and has different plans for the epic...
 
Ah, my mistake. I thought it was a static composition, shot twice with different exposures...

Good idea about exploiting the color channels for producing a mask...I haven't used it before.
 
Stephen, try this chart. Maybe this will make sense.

We are grading the same footage twice. No need for a second shot.

RED%20DR%20Chart.png


I'm not a great communicator but I hope that helps,

Phil
 
This is an excellent tip, Phil. I will work with the concept using Nuke. I have a project coming up next week that I believe will benefit from this technique and my MX'ed Red that came back this week. And you communicate fine, the process was crystal clear from the outset. Thanks for the followup posts, too.
 
I guess I misunderstood as well. IMHO, there is no need to reinvent the wheel, unless nothing else is available. Any professional color grading system allows to do just that with a simple luminance key. I'm sorry, I don't have a better example right now, but here is something I had done a while ago using a luminance keyer with garbage mask to bring the sky in on a Lustre http://vimeo.com/7176582. I know, it's not very subtle, but the idea is the same.
Originally I'd though, that Phil was a describing a technique for combining two different exposures. But even then, two diffrent exposures with two cameras can be easily combined for an HDR composition in something like FilmMaster or Baselight.
 
Ryan E. Walters said:
I'm used to using power windows and tracking- so this is a much more elegant solution when a power window does not quite do it.
Click to expand...
Typically, we wind up using both keys and power windows simultaneously, to restrain the key effect. My point is, this is has been widely used for a long, long time, especially with blown-out skies. A lot of the time, we wind up having to use other windows on the non-sky portions, particularly if they're in deep shadow, adding luminance in color-correction. Modern systems like Baselight, Resolve, Pablo, and Lustre can handle dozens of simultaneous power windows, even with 4K material -- but they aren't cheap. Still, the control and quality of these high-end systems is very hard to beat.

It can be harder to deal with film in that the grain increases in overexposed whites, requiring a lot of grain management. With digital, as long as everything is within range, you can usually salvage it to some degree in post. I would generally rather deal with this instead of a built-in grad filter during production, because then the effect is permanently baked-in. But that's the DP's choice.

Combining two different exposures in HDR would be impractical for most film shoots, unless it's a lockdown with almost no action. It's great for stills, though. (I also agree with Jake's comments above.)
 
Okay, thanks. . . I was obviously confused, as this is not my area of expertise (obviously!).

(Now, if I could only figure out what my area of expertise really is, I'd be in great shape.)

Stephen
 
Marc Wielage said:
Modern systems like Baselight, Resolve, Pablo, and Lustre can handle dozens of simultaneous power windows, even with 4K material -- but they aren't cheap. Still, the control and quality of these high-end systems is very hard to beat.
Click to expand...

Yep, very true indeed! I've had the opportunity to sit in on two sessions with a talented Pablo artist, and I was amazed at what he could do- not only in his skills, but that it was all real time 4k- worth every penny IMO. It made me not want to go back to Color ...
 
Ryan E. Walters said:
Yes, the info is there or is it not, but simply put this allows you to effect one area while independently effecting the other. It is a very refined / specific power window. If you were to use just the lift / gamma / gain controls you would be effecting the whole image, and sometimes the amount that you have to adjust one area means that there are compromises in the other areas. Which is why methods like these are helpful-- they let you push all the individual areas are as needed. Clear as mud?
Click to expand...

You should check out Color in more depth. When you're grading, you use the lift to get the blacks where you want, and then mess with the gamma and gain controls to bring up the darks and bring down the lights. So you can affect separate areas of the image, for sure. You can also sample a color, and only affect stuff that's that color, or value, or both. And draw a mask and animate it. You can also selectively saturate without pulling a key, like if you wanted the sky to be bluer, but the vegetation to stay the same green.

What you're describing is a great technique for still photos that are bracketed, but for video, I think it's quicker, easier, and better to edit the raw file directly in Color. I'd be very interested to see evidence proving me wrong, however.
 
joshua csehak said:
You should check out Color in more depth. When you're grading, you use the lift to get the blacks where you want, and then mess with the gamma and gain controls to bring up the darks and bring down the lights. So you can affect separate areas of the image, for sure. You can also sample a color, and only affect stuff that's that color, or value, or both. And draw a mask and animate it. You can also selectively saturate without pulling a key, like if you wanted the sky to be bluer, but the vegetation to stay the same green.
Click to expand...

I think we may be misunderstanding each other. What you quoted, and what I stated was a simplistic explanation of why a trick like this is helpful. The lift / gamma / gain controls are great, and very helpful in grading, but they cannot do everything- which is why secondaries are needed. The lift / gamma / gain controls while mostly effecting their section, also bleed into other areas. If you push the lift control enough you can effect the gain. Pulling a key like Phil has suggested here helps to selectively isolate an area without having to track anything- which is the idea / concept that I had not thought of before, so I appreciate the heads up- another tool to add to my tool box. :)
 
Where the heck IS that? Molokai?
 
YES! Molokai, very good Paul! The shot was from a helicopter, no way to see this from the ground. I had never been there before and was totally blown away by the scenery. From what we saw, the cliffs on the remote eastern side rival anything else on the islands.

Phil
 
Oh, Molokai is one of the coolest places ever! My wife and I have been there a few times and did the hike down to the peninsula last time. It was EPIC (ha ha).

Helicopter- you lucky dog!!!
 
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