TimeCode vs. Audio Synch... Advice? Opinions? Guidance?

[Terry VerHaar]

​So, I have been looking for the best / easiest / most efficient way to consistently marry second source sound with my video files in my NLE (FCPX, FWIW). The traditional method, of course, is via timecode (with something like Synch 'N Link) but FCPX or PluralEyes (I have both) can typically do an excellent job by synching audio files.

If I want to use TC, I have to make sure I have TC generated and that my Dragon is jammed to it. To consistently count on that, especially in my smaller shoots where a TC-based audio recorder may not be present (instead using an H4n, for example), I would have to get a TC box, like the Tentacle or Timecode Buddy, and feed TC to both the camera and the audio device. OTOH, if I simply make sure to capture decent scratch sound into the camera, I should be able to consistently synch sound from any audio device with my RED footage.

Any advice, suggestions, thoughts about this would be most appreciated. While I know that sound captured by a professional audio person with high end (TC-based) equipment might give me better sound, that isn't really my question here. What I am hoping to to is get clear on a workflow I can consistently employ which will give me consistent results in synching my video and second source audio.

Thanks!

 

[David W. Jones]

Best old guy voice... Back in my day, we would just align the clap of a slate.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Best old guy voice... Back in my day, we would just align the clap of a slate.

Yeah, I am old, too. But, I am teaching myself new tricks. lol I have always hated tedium and synching clips one by one is the definition of tedium.

 

[Scott Crawley]

Get Zen with it Terry. I am finding that I prefer a few days of tedium over the drama of stressing over whether or not the other methods will work.

You use FCPX, try using waveform analysis to synch. It works fairly well for me... When I can get a scratch track.

 

[Marc Wielage]

Get Zen with it Terry. I am finding that I prefer a few days of tedium over the drama of stressing over whether or not the other methods will work.

That's the best philosophy. Once you get in practice, syncing sound is actually very fast and easy, plus it's a good way for the editor to start familiarizing themselves with the material and get it organized.

You are much better off using a timecode audio recorder, and a $299 recorder like the Zoom H4 ain't gonna cut it. As I always say, if you have $40,000+ invested in a Dragon, you could at least spend 10% of that budget and buy or rent a halfway-decent audio recorder and a couple of microphones.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

...

You use FCPX, try using waveform analysis to synch. It works fairly well for me... When I can get a scratch track.

Scott - that is exactly the question I want to put to bed, with a well thought out workflow. I can either move to a timecode system for all my shoots, and know that I'll have TC to synch things with. Or, I can religiously shoot with scratch sound going into the camera, making sure it's good enough to do synch with sound in FCPX. Either way, I have to invest in some small amount of equipment for a consistent approach, but I'll know what results I can expect from my workflow. Either will work but I am looking for input on the "best" approach; taking into account other potential advantages and disadvantages, that I haven't thought of or been aware of, with either of these methods .

 

[Nick Fury]

Hi Terry,

Now see this:

http://www.trewaudio.com/store/Timecode-Buddy-TS-TCB.html

Maybe not budget conscious, depending...

Also, with a Zaxcom system, you culd have BOTH Tc and scratch audio on camera...

+1 to what Marc reiterates, although, with Weapon/Stealth's price point, the 10% $,$$$ just went UP...

Thank you very much

Fury

 

[Terry VerHaar]

That's the best philosophy. Once you get in practice, syncing sound is actually very fast and easy, plus it's a good way for the editor to start familiarizing themselves with the material and get it organized.

You are much better off using a timecode audio recorder, and a $299 recorder like the Zoom H4 ain't gonna cut it. As I always say, if you have $40,000+ invested in a Dragon, you could at least spend 10% of that budget and buy or rent a halfway-decent audio recorder and a couple of microphones.

Marc - thanks for the comment. I think I haven't expressed very clearly my approach. I's not my desire to have the "better sound" debate because whenever I can, I always have a sound person with professional level equipment on the set. That does give me better sound, no doubt. However, the question always becomes, do I synch with that timecode (jam synch the camera), or do I record scratch audio. The reason it matters to me is that I want to have a consistent approach and develop a workflow that is enhanced by that consistency. And, yes, occasionally I have to use my own equipment and do the best I can with sound because of time, space, budget and personnel considerations.

Those who know me here, know that I am:
A. A big fan of FCPX; at least partially because of the work saving capabilities represented by its database structure,
B. I am a super big fan of Michael Cioni and his philosophy and approach to production and post,
C. I am also a big fan of Sam Westman as an FCPX workflow guru.

My goal is to move as quickly as possible from shooting footage to having a rough cut. Synching sound, quickly and "automatically" - as long as it is done with predictable accuracy - is a huge help in this. If you follow the development that Michael and Sam have gone though in streamlining their workflow, you'll know what I mean as far as saving time and effort goes. The point is to spend more time on the creative part of editing and less on the "assistant editor" role. Michael calls it lowering the "Price per Pixel."

As an aside... in case anyone wants to comment on it specifically, one advantage of using Synch 'N Link (synchs via timecode only) is that role metadata can be passed along from the sound recording device. AFAIK, PluralEyes nor FCPX will do this.

Thanks for comments!

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Hi Terry,

Now see this:

http://www.trewaudio.com/store/Timecode-Buddy-TS-TCB.html

Maybe not budget conscious, depending...

Also, with a Zaxcom system, you culd have BOTH Tc and scratch audio on camera...

+1 to what Marc reiterates, although, with Weapon/Stealth's price point, the 10% $,$$$ just went UP...

Thank you very much

Fury

Thanks for the link, Nick. I am aware of TimeCode Buddy but forgot they made a slate device in cooperation with Denecke. Looks good but, if I am not mistaken, it would require additional TCBuddy units on the sound device and the camera? Not an outrageous costs but certainly more than just a scratch mic. Definitely a possible approach.

There is also a less expensive - but probably less accurate - version of this using an iPad running movie slate and jamming synch to the camera and the audio device (if it's TC capable).

 

[Marc Wielage]

However, the question always becomes, do I synch with that timecode (jam synch the camera), or do I record scratch audio.

I'm a believer in both, since that way the camera becomes a backup for the sound recorder, and the sound recorder becomes the main audio that's preferred (particularly for the multitrack isos). If you just need quick-and-dirty dailies or on-set playback, at least the camera audio scratch track will give you something in terms of actor performance and so on. But for whatever is actually pulled in for editing, you have to sync everything up. Ideally, the main channel is a mix track prepared by the location sound mixer, and then the editor has the flexibility to use (or not use) all the other channels as required.

Providing a scratch track takes little preparation -- just a wireless receiver on the camera and a cable. I've always felt having a timecode lock box and a wireless scratch track receiver is a small price to pay for the peace of mind in having solid sync and a perfectly usable scratch track. I've been disappointed on occasions where my clients have elected to use the scratch track in place of what I think is the "best" sound source -- the original sound recorder's WAV files -- but it's a compliment when they say, "hey, what was on the camera sounded fine, and we mixed the commercial and nobody noticed or cared." So it's up to the producers and the post department to make the decision on what to use.

To me, post production is largely about flexibility and choices, and anything that helps them work faster and more efficiently is good by me.

 

[Scott Crawley]

Thanks for the link, Nick. I am aware of TimeCode Buddy but forgot they made a slate device in cooperation with Denecke. Looks good but, if I am not mistaken, it would require additional TCBuddy units on the sound device and the camera? Not an outrageous costs but certainly more than just a scratch mic. Definitely a possible approach.

There is also a less expensive - but probably less accurate - version of this using an iPad running movie slate and jamming synch to the camera and the audio device (if it's TC capable).

Time Code Buddy also works with an iPad app (I believe it is supplied with the units.) that uses synch technology that is licensed from Deneke. It also happens to be compatible with the Movie Slate app. If I am not mistaken, the app distributed with the TC Buddy is just a branded version of the same Movie Slate app.

In correspondence with the developer, I learned that they have been working on wireless integration with Red but last I knew they had not completed testing. I believe this included start/stop and full camera metadata send/receive. If you contact him he is very responsive, and more inquiries may just motivate him to complete the testing phase. Shoot him an email.