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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

timecode to dpx

D

dmax

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Hi,

Going fcp to DS. My workflow is:
FCP edit (proxy files)
EDL, XML out.
XML thru crimson then Redcine - DPX out of Red Cine
EDL into DS, link to DPX

All is going well except my dpx timecodes do not match my offline/edl etc.

When i open an R3d file in Red cine there are 2 timecodes, one "normal" tc, Timecode A and the other "Time of day", Timecode B.
The Time of Day TC is kept throughout my post workflow until I export to dpx from redcine. The dpx tc seems to match my Timecode A.
Is there a way to select which tc goes through on Redcine?

Thanks
Dec
 
The timecode you are going to see in things like the proxies depends on what timecode was selected in the camera display at the time of shooting. At least that's what my testing has determined. But then depending on how you use your footage and pull DPXs you might see a different timecode track, such as via REDline (which Crimson uses) or via the FCP log and transfer. I wrote a blog post about this (click here) as this is very confusing and seems to me to be just down-right screwed up. I was hoping there was just something I was missing but so far it doesn't seem so. It feels to me like another example of post being an afterthought.
 
dmax said:
Is there a way to select which tc goes through on Redcine?
Click to expand...

Hey Dec,

Unfortunately, not. REDCINE is just going to pass through whatever timecode was selected as the primary timecode in-camera.

In SCRATCH, you can choose which timecode track in an R3D file to use for a conform. But it's still a PITA because on-set, it seems like a lot of people just don't pay attention to this setting and EDLs will come in to conform with some days of ToD TC and some with Rec Run TC.

Such is life...

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, inc.
LA, CA, USA
 
But then you've got REDline and the FCP Log and Transfer plug in that sees only time of day code regardless of that was selected in camera. I say not "such is life" ... this seems like a huge oversight on someone's part as this could really screw post.
Is this documented anywhere? Does the RED camera manual say that the timecode selected in the camera display is the timecode used in most post situation?
 
Lucas and Editblog, Thanks for your posts.
I don't know the settings during production, but the quicktime proxies were brought into FCP with Log And Transfer. I'll try to import and see if that help...
Cheers,
Dec
 
editblog said:
But then you've got REDline and the FCP Log and Transfer plug in that sees only time of day code regardless of that was selected in camera. I say not "such is life" ... this seems like a huge oversight on someone's part as this could really screw post.
Is this documented anywhere? Does the RED camera manual say that the timecode selected in the camera display is the timecode used in most post situation?
Click to expand...

Editblog, ok... to play devil's advocate here...

There are 4 major post tools that read R3D files natively: RED Alert, REDCINE, FCP, and SCRATCH.

The set assigns a timecode on set. RED Alert, REDCINE, and SCRATCH all respect that timecode. FCP does not.

So it seems like the right place to document this lies with Apple. The camera gives you good functionality and allows you to use two separate timecode tracks - very useful in many situations. RED Alert, REDCINE, and SCRATCH all respect that choice. FCP does not, so why is this RED's responsibility to document?

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, inc.
LA, CA, USA
 
luki said:
Editblog, ok... to play devil's advocate here...

There are 4 major post tools that read R3D files natively: RED Alert, REDCINE, FCP, and SCRATCH.

The set assigns a timecode on set. RED Alert, REDCINE, and SCRATCH all respect that timecode. FCP does not.

So it seems like the right place to document this lies with Apple. The camera gives you good functionality and allows you to use two separate timecode tracks - very useful in many situations. RED Alert, REDCINE, and SCRATCH all respect that choice. FCP does not, so why is this RED's responsibility to document?
Click to expand...

That's not exactly correct from my testing.

The FCP Log and Transfer plug in is a RED product is it not? It is downloaded from their website so I think most people assume it is their code in the plug in. My guess would be it's the plug in that determines which timecode track is seen when bringing in the clips. But even if Apple wrote this thing, I would at least hope RED tested it out before presenting in on their site for download.

The other place that doesn't see the timecode track assigned on-set is with REDline. It seems to always see TOD code. This seems to be popping up now as people are using Crimson. This has been brought up several times on Ian's site and he thinks it's a problem that lies in REDline.

I've brought these points up as it has screwed me in post. AFAIK this isn't documented anywhere, at least I didn't see it in all of my research (and I did a lot of research before starting to post RED). This is very important to know as it could hose a planned workflow. As the NBC public services announcements say ... The More You Know!
 
Why can't both be tracked and exported? If the camera is going to record both, then both should be propagated through the post process. Only passing one or the other will always be a problem somewhere.

Some of the Redline work Avid is doing with Redline (when released) will include both timecodes and tracked in Avid and exported out as needed. I don't see why all systems just don't do this -

Michael
 
MichaelP said:
Why can't both be tracked and exported? If the camera is going to record both, then both should be propagated through the post process. Only passing one or the other will always be a problem somewhere.

Some of the Redline work Avid is doing with Redline (when released) will include both timecodes and tracked in Avid and exported out as needed. I don't see why all systems just don't do this -

Michael
Click to expand...

That's a great question Michael. It just feels like post is such a afterthought to the folks at RED. It's like they are relying on 75% of post innovations to happen with the user community! As a post professional I wish they would not worry so much about announcing new camera models and concentrate a little bit on post production for their currently shipping model. As I've said before, and I'm sure most editors would agree, a camera is only as good as its post process.
 
RED is making those changes for an upcoming release in Redline to make this easier. Media Composer can handle metadata up the a_ _ so it will be able to track it all and be used for output as EDL. XML, etc.

Michael
 
Hi Michael. Any idea of dates for this?
 
A bit of additional info on this. If I File/import to FCP it continues to see the TOD tc. But if I drang a clip from Finder into FCP, it sees the EDGE tc. But I think REDCINE, whether it is their problem or not, would be a much better product if it would see BOTH timecodes.
A lot of people using RED here are not overly savvy to issues like this (Is anyone?) but the problems only become apparent to them during teh post, or pre-Post process.
 
dmax said:
A bit of additional info on this. If I File/import to FCP it continues to see the TOD tc. But if I drang a clip from Finder into FCP, it sees the EDGE tc. But I think REDCINE, whether it is their problem or not, would be a much better product if it would see BOTH timecodes.
A lot of people using RED here are not overly savvy to issues like this (Is anyone?) but the problems only become apparent to them during teh post, or pre-Post process.
Click to expand...

Interesting ... I could not replicate this with my test footage. I doesn't matter if I File > Import or drag and drop proxies from the finder the clips see the timecode assigned during the shoot. But when I go to the Log and Transfer tool it only sees TOD code.
 
dmax -

I am waiting for RED to releasr the Redline that has that work in it. I don't have insight for their release schedule.

Michael
 
I dont see that!

I dont see that!

dmax said:
A bit of additional info on this. If I File/import to FCP it continues to see the TOD tc. But if I drang a clip from Finder into FCP, it sees the EDGE tc. But I think REDCINE, whether it is their problem or not, would be a much better product if it would see BOTH timecodes.
A lot of people using RED here are not overly savvy to issues like this (Is anyone?) but the problems only become apparent to them during teh post, or pre-Post process.
Click to expand...

dmax,

If i File/import to FCP or drag a clip from finder into FCP, I see only Edge code until and otherwise you use L&T where it takes TOD.
 
The new Redline with RedALE adds all the timecodes to the ALE file and is now posted on the Red Support site. I have attached a zipped ALE file as exported from Redline of a single R3D file for you to look at as an example.

The next couple weeks, by end of July will bring a whitepaper and tools for both Redline and RedCine to ALE and back XML. Stay tuned.

Michael
 
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