Time for me to get off the pot

[Frank Weeks]

I’ve been reading this forum since last April. A lot more lurking than posting but dad always taught me to keep my ears open and my mouth shut.

I’ve learned a great deal from some very knowledgeable people, but with the arrival of my Red scheduled for March, I still have many questions.

I'm trying to avoid making a huge mistake before my camera arrives. I still have nightmares over my decision to go with MII as my first component format in the early 90's. Bad decisions kill business.

I know FCP has the advantage now but I use avid media composer and adobe premiere pro every day and learning a 6th non-linear system is not something I care to do. Fast video machine, media 100 and Incite are the others I've used since going non-linear in 1995. All but Media 100 were PC based.

I purchased CS3 on Dec 31 because my CPA suggested spending what I could before the end of the year.
It sits, sealed, until I build a new box. I was going to follow Jay Kelley's lead and build a box very similar to his. But with the problems he’s having, I’ve been holding off.

I need to build a new PC. I've built my last three but none in the last 3 or 4 years.
Don't get me wrong. I have nothing against Macs. Great computers. But I'm an old dog who has enough trouble keeping up with new trick as it is. Premiere and AE are my babies and I prefer to use them on a PC.

Jay had a great thread on building a new PC (workflow_redcine) but he has struggled since and with recent developments I am more confused that ever.

Most of what I do will end up in SD for now. 30-60 min TV shows. So speed is critical.

My main question… is CS3 (with Cineform if necessary) going to work effectively for long form projects and if so what parts would you recommend to build a PC. $2500 to $3500 range.

Your suggestions would be greatly appreciated

The only thing I am sure about is that I will own a camera I’ve been waiting for, for 25 years. The RED ONE. I want to be ready when it gets here.


Frank

 

[Steve Sherrick]

There are some things to consider.

1. What platform are you most comfortable on - PC seems to be best in your case
2. What NLE suits your needs? With Media Composer you'd have some workarounds right now. I don't know much about Premiere, but from what I gather it has greatly improved since the days I was using it (way back). Can you integrate Red footage immediately? Maybe you can.

To me an editing system has to serve some very basic needs. Am I comfortable in the user interface? Can I work quickly - as in shortcuts, lots of real-time capability, and few bugs to contend with. Is the support good?

Now combine those basic needs with the needs of the Red camera. Does your NLE of choice fit the bill? If not, then look elsewhere. Speed will be a major factor on certain types of jobs. So we must be able to turn projects around quickly. That means getting the footage into the NLE as quick as possible, editing it effciently, and then finishing for delivery before the deadline.

The NLE is not the only factor. Storage, accurate video monitoring, etc all play into the process. An NLE is just one piece of the pie. How it fits into the overall workflow is very important.

Whatever you choose for an NLE just make sure you have researched the entire workflow properly so that there are no speedbumps along the way.

Steve

 

[number6]

Frank, understand your predicament somewhat, but am not yet savvy enough to advise you. So let me throw out a few "I'm wonderings."

I'm wondering if being outputting to SD won't mean that current perceived bottlenecks will disappear?

I'm wondering if some wild-type free-for-all codec won't appear on the internet that will decode R3D files?

I'm wondering if RED will come up with an Adobe/pc work-around soon?

I'm wondering if Adobe will come up with a pc/Adobe work-around soon?

I'm wondering if they have a problem at NASA with noise in the blue channel when they take those photographs from space of the blue marble?

Everything else I've pretty much got an answer for.

 

[Frank Weeks]

There are some things to consider.

1. What platform are you most comfortable on - PC seems to be best in your case

You are correct. Plus the fact that the cs3 I have purchased is for pc. I can still return it (until the end of the month) but I prefer not to. I'm not sure what advantage I would gain by using CS3 on a mac. My understanding is that the advantage is in FCP.

2. What NLE suits your needs? With Media Composer you'd have some workarounds right now.

agreed. Too many workarounds. The intigration of AE is a big draw for me.

Whatever you choose for an NLE just make sure you have researched the entire workflow properly so that there are no speedbumps along the way

It's those speedbumps that concern me

Thanks Steve


frank

 

[Frank Weeks]

I'm wondering if being outputting to SD won't mean that current perceived bottlenecks will disappear?

I'm wondering if some wild-type free-for-all codec won't appear on the internet that will decode R3D files?

I'm wondering if RED will come up with an Adobe/pc work-around soon?

I'm wondering if Adobe will come up with a pc/Adobe work-around soon?

I suspect the answer to some of these questions may be yes. I hope so at least.

Not sure about the problem at NASA

frank

 

[Stacey Spears]

what parts would you recommend to build a PC. $2500 to $3500 range.

One thing to consider is you can dual boot a Mac Pro with the OSX and Windows. You can get an 8-core for under $3500 with plenty of RAM. It is one of the more stable Intel machines for Windows.

From what I have seen so far, Apple did a pretty good job on the keyboard shortcut keys. If you know Avid, you can use FCP.

If you go the straight PC route, I would look at something that is dual CPU capable. Start with a single quad core and then upgrade later, when you start earning money with this venture.

 

[number6]

Start with a single quad core and then upgrade later, when you start earning money with this venture.

Stacey, sounds like he may already be earning money. Besides, there's a tax rebate coming:w00t:

I purchased CS3 on Dec 31 because my CPA suggested spending what I could before the end of the year.

 

[Frank Weeks]

dual boot a Mac Pro with the OSX and Windows

Interesting. I hadn't thought about the a dual boot route but I have talked to Macville about going with the new Mac (he did). I'm just not sure that I would gain anything using CS3 on Mac.

My main interest in starting this thread was to get a list of recommended components so I can build a solid computer for editing 4k. I would really like to stay with PC if possible.

Thanks for the input Stacey.

Frank
.

 

[Frank Weeks]

Stacey, sounds like he may already be earning money

You are correct sir, but not as much as I hope to.

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

Hey Video,

Since you mentioned me I thought I should respond! The system I built was successful.. I am quite happy with it.

I also got through the quicktime problem 60% and a new fix was posted tonight, and I am hopeful tomorrow it will be fixed altogether.

But, let's talk about workflow for a moment. I have been using / testing cineform, and it's ok. But I have not been thrilled with it's work in Premiere. The trick is, from what I can tell, Cineform is fine, but PREMIERE is still not a great program for me.

I also use a program called SpeedEdit, and it's pretty impressive. It has background rendering, and Premiere (To my knowlege at this time) does not. Furthermore, when Premiere renders, it's damn slow.

Right now I do not have a PC workflow I am happy with. My standard resolution will be 1080p.. So I am testing based on that.

I CAN edit with what I have, but it's not smooth, or fast. I realize that "developing" RED footage takes time, but once done with that I expect I should be able to run things pretty fast.

What I WANTED to see was a fast editing system in Premiere with realtime waveforms and vectorscope running while video was playing.. And fast background rendering that allowed me to use whatever plug-ins Premiere had.

I know FCP has these abilities.. And for Codecs, it has prorez. I am pretty sure Cineform is a better quality codec, but I need flexibility.

For now, I would say it's not the codec, but the editor. I'm curious about Vegas as well.. I LOVE their sound abilities, but don't know much about their video side.

So I don't have any direct answers for you. The computer works great.. No problems there, Cineform seems to do what it's designed to do, but Premiere... I dunno It's possible I just don't know what I am doing, it's been a while.. But...

I need a little more time

Jay

 

[dino g]

Go To Mac & Fcp

Go To Mac & Fcp

i strongly suggest you bag your PC and take the plunge, RED did, and so should you. FCP is easy to learn and bulletproof with RED footage. We have been apart of over 25 professional shoots in the past 4 months with RED#0031 and everyone that edits the footage has been extremely satisfied with the workflow and final product.

If you are an editor now, you will learn FCP in a week, tops, less if you just want to putt around.

GO FOR IT!!! Learn it now because after NAB 08, it will be even more apparent whom is in charge. FCP + RED, it is the future of content creation.

 

[Frank Weeks]

Right now I do not have a PC workflow I am happy with.

First of all Thanks for the response. I’ve been following your exploits for a while now and I know things haven’t gone quite as well as you wanted. Being a fan of Adobe I had hoped to go that route. Now I’m beginning to wonder.

I just want a fast (as close to real time as possible), at least for the SD work I do. I have no problem with a slower workflow for compositing and other more intricate projects. that’s common with AE, Boris and Maya but the fast turn around of TV shows won’t always allow for that.

It has become apparent that Apple may have a bigger head start, because of their early co-operation with Red, than I had first realized. I believe my best move for the moment might be to return the CS3 while I can (it’s still sealed) and rethink things. I can always reorder. My camera is still a couple months away.

FWIW I hope you can square things away, I now you have help on the way.
I will continue to follow your progress.

Thanks Jay

Frank

 

[Frank Weeks]

i strongly suggest you bag your PC and take the plunge

Theres alot of PC people out there that might not agree, but for the moment I'm on hold.

Frank

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

First of all Thanks for the response. I’ve been following your exploits for a while now and I know things haven’t gone quite as well as you wanted. Being a fan of Adobe I had hoped to go that route. Now I’m beginning to wonder.

I just want a fast (as close to real time as possible), at least for the SD work I do. I have no problem with a slower workflow for compositing and other more intricate projects. that’s common with AE, Boris and Maya but the fast turn around of TV shows won’t always allow for that.

It has become apparent that Apple may have a bigger head start, because of their early co-operation with Red, than I had first realized. I believe my best move for the moment might be to return the CS3 while I can (it’s still sealed) and rethink things. I can always reorder. My camera is still a couple months away.

FWIW I hope you can square things away, I now you have help on the way.
I will continue to follow your progress.

Thanks Jay

Frank

Thanks Frank,

A lot of people here are using personal preference to push what they already liked in the first place.. I can understand that, but it's not a very realistic thing to do when you have thousands of man-hours, software, and files invested in a specific platform. Simply saying "buy a mac" is not looking into the situation carefully enough.

Bottom line: For SIMPLE editing, SpeedEdit and Cineform work well.

Premiere Pro works well with Cineform also. It IS real time editing like they say, but the trick is you cannot use any video effects filters on it. You need to do your editing, THEN focus on your color correction and filters. If you do this, then Premiere will be shiny.

If a winning lottery ticket was in my possesion tomorrow, I would be all mac for RED. To get where I need to be would cost about $11,000.00. But without that lottery ticket, no friggin way.

The one thing my little "Melt-Down" did do was really get Jim and Co on board the PC workflow.. They are great people, and they were really concerned about how upset I was. I was grateful for their reaction. I believe things will change. When I began looking at the workflow, my focus was one of making the software do what I wanted the way I wanted.. When I go back, it will be learning to work with it in the best way it's capable.

I definately need to learn more about Cineform and Premiere.. That's first. I do believe however, we can make this work quite well.. And in the end, I believe that for raw horsepower, and saving money, PC will win out..

Jay

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

Frank,

Don't know if you've looked this way, but I'm gonna check out Vegas
Jay

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

And in the end, I believe that for raw horsepower, and saving money, PC will win out..

Jay

For raw horsepower, and saving money ... a custom PC will most likely always win.

But not everyone wants to build a computer. Ever troubleshoot a custom PC that doesn't work? I am sure many of you out there have, but I am also sure many aren't up for that fun. Some folks like knowing that for three years their workstation will run, or Apple will fix it for free.

And if you eliminate custom PCs, and start comparing prices of brand named PCs with Macs - it's really pretty marginal. And for that margin, you can boot to either OS and run almost any software.

Many people have significant investments in software and don't want to change platforms. Many people work with a specific NLE and don't want to be forced to change to another NLE.

The thing you need to remember is, if you want to provide quality services to your clients with RED, in a VERY competitive environment, IMHO you need to have an open mind, and not be emotionally attached to a platform.

RED seems committed to cross platform support. When will everything that works on the MAC side work on a PC? Which platform will offer more speed when the dust clears? Will Apple pull some significant tricks out of their hat at NAB? Will Adobe step up to the plate and get serious about making Premiere a high-end finishing tool?

I don't think even Red knows.

We're gonna work with Macs AND PCs. And we will leverage the best of both worlds. It's really not about a platform "winning out" - it's about being able to be cross-platform and using the right tool for the right job. And if the only thing you can afford to work with Red is build a custom PC - then DO IT - but as you start to make more money (hopefully) working with your Red camera, you may see other applications or advantages to the MAC platform.

I guess what I am trying to say is ... it doesn't help you on a business level to be passionate about a platform. What does help you, is to carefully look at all the advantages and disadvantages the platforms provide you and your ability to deliver to your clients at any given time.

 

[Frank Weeks]

I believe that for raw horsepower, and saving money, PC will win out..

I I do not want to switch to the dark side (that's what Jared called it:biggrin: )
I have a lot invested in the PC platform and I totally agree about the value issue. I can see where it would be out of the question for many professionals. I speak only for myself when I say, if there is ever a logical time for me to make the shift, this would be it.

We both are similar in that we sail our own ships.
Mine has been in dry dock for the past 5 years because I was under contract with a company that did not allow me to solicit new business, I have maintained several old accounts during that time but there was little need to upgrade equipment or software.

Now, that has all changed. I know that the Red one is the right direction. I just need to find the best and fastest workflow, so I will be ready to go when the camera arrives.

I can continue with existing equipment for a couple more months. My passion for what I do makes me want it all now, but I believe the smartest thing I can do… is be patient.
And see how this shakes out.

FWIW I hope you are dead on target about adobe and Avid having equal footing in the near future. With my red reservation over 1600… I may well have time to find out.

I will follow your progress.

frank

 

[Sean]

Thanks Frank,

A lot of people here are using personal preference to push what they already liked in the first place.. I can understand that, but it's not a very realistic thing to do when you have thousands of man-hours, software, and files invested in a specific platform. Simply saying "buy a mac" is not looking into the situation carefully enough.

Bottom line: For SIMPLE editing, SpeedEdit and Cineform work well.

Premiere Pro works well with Cineform also. It IS real time editing like they say, but the trick is you cannot use any video effects filters on it. You need to do your editing, THEN focus on your color correction and filters. If you do this, then Premiere will be shiny.

If a winning lottery ticket was in my possesion tomorrow, I would be all mac for RED. To get where I need to be would cost about $11,000.00. But without that lottery ticket, no friggin way.

The one thing my little "Melt-Down" did do was really get Jim and Co on board the PC workflow.. They are great people, and they were really concerned about how upset I was. I was grateful for their reaction. I believe things will change. When I began looking at the workflow, my focus was one of making the software do what I wanted the way I wanted.. When I go back, it will be learning to work with it in the best way it's capable.

I definately need to learn more about Cineform and Premiere.. That's first. I do believe however, we can make this work quite well.. And in the end, I believe that for raw horsepower, and saving money, PC will win out..

Jay

I too have so much invested in PC and Avid that it would make more sense for me to go for another camera until a PC workflow became practical. The months and dollars I'd invest in order to become as well outfitted and proficient with Mac/FCP just wouldn't make any kind of sense. I'm pretty convinced that the OS debate will be nearly moot within 5 years...but here in 2008, it remains. But I'm still confident that Red and the many PC/Avid/Premiere users will find a way to develop an effective non-Mac workflow. It will just take a bit more time. And considering how very quickly things develop in the digital world (cf. Cineform's currently shelved workaround), I doubt it will be a long wait at all!

 

[Frank Weeks]

Which platform will offer more speed when the dust clears?

Now thats what I'm talking about

it doesn't help you on a business level to be passionate about a platform

agreed
My only passion in business is the results of my work.

Thanks Mark

frank

 

[Frank Weeks]

But I'm still confident that Red and the many PC/Avid/Premiere users will find a way to develop an effective non-Mac workflow. It will just take a bit more time. And considering how very quickly things develop in the digital world (cf. Cineform's currently shelved workaround), I doubt it will be a long wait at all!

I'm hoping we will see something between now and NAB that will clarify thing for all of us. Until then, I will try to be patient.