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Time Base question USA and Europe shoot 25p vs 30p ?

Adrian Weinbrecht

Adrian Weinbrecht

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We are about to do a shoot in the USA and Europe. We will Mix the footage from both places, The work will be shown online.

As we need to mix the footage from both regions, does anyone have a view on this ? We will be shooting B roll in both USA and Europe using indoor ambient light (practicals) with some computer screens too. So I was concerned about lights pulsing/screens scanning etc.

So what would you do ? Shoot everything in 30p ? (USA normal) 25p (Europe normal) or 24p ?

Thanks in advance.

Adrian
 
Primary broadcaster/client normally dictates if it should be 30 p or 25 p. I do a lot of shows which are co-pros for Uk and US tv and normally shoot at 25 fps, then it is converted to 30 fps for us broadcast. If you shoot at 25 fps, when you go to the states, to avoid flicker just set shutter speed to a 60th. US power runs at 60 hz. If shooting 30 fps, and filming in uk, set shutter to a 50th. UK power runs at 50 hz.
 
Thanks Steven

So 25p is the way to go then? In the past we have shot everything in 30p when we've done these mixed location shoots.

I was was just curious as to what peoples views were.

Do you see any advantage on one over the other?
 
Who is paying for the primary deliverable, or where is your biggest market? If you can shoot 23.976 for your subject matter I'd got that way because it is the best quality post conversion to both with the least artifacting. But otherwise shoot for the major deliverable, and just shoot with shutterspeed adjusted for flicker.

Whatever you do don't mix frame rates if it's avoidable.
 
Thanks Craig

Good points raised. This really is a split between USA/UK both are important, totally agree about 1x Timebase for all. I will check with my editor tomorrow about post conversion, are you sure about 23.98 being the best option in terms of conversion for both Markets?
 
Yes.... 23,97P is the way to go.

So shoot and master in 23,97p then convert picture to 30p for the states and then for europe you just change the playback framerate from 23,97P to 25p and time stretch the final audio mix to fit.

That is to me the best way to go when going for both markets.
 
If it is just for the internet, frame rate does not really matter. Compression for internet, I gather, is better at 25fps than at 30 fps, as there is less info to compress. However, higher frame rates do smooth out fast action. ... If majority is uk/europe I would do 25 fps.
 
Funny,

I'd shoot it all at 24 and adjust the shutter for flicker in each place and finish it all at 24 for the web. If you need a deliverable at 23.98, 24, 25 or 29.97 or 30 a 24p master is a good thing to have.

Battistella
 
David Battistella said:
Funny,

I'd shoot it all at 24 and adjust the shutter for flicker in each place and finish it all at 24 for the web. If you need a deliverable at 23.98, 24, 25 or 29.97 or 30 a 24p master is a good thing to have.

Battistella
Click to expand...

Agree but the only tricky one is a good 29,97 and that I find the best to be made from a 23,97P dont you think?

And yes for flicker, yes use flicker free shutter speeds is working well, listed under the www.red.com tools.

Shooting 25p in the states is no good due to flicker.
 
Björn Benckert said:
Agree but the only tricky one is a good 29,97 and that I find the best to be made from a 23,97P dont you think?
Click to expand...

yes, of course, at 23.976 plays very nicely with 29.97, but I would only go that way if I knew it was a betacam finish, or maybe. 54.94 HD master for Japanese television. :)

For web delivery I would for sure shooting cut it all at 24.0 which plays back nicely on all computers around the world.

battistella
 
Frank Glencairn said:
Since computer displays around the world run on 60HZ,
30fps and adjusting flicker with the shutter would be the way to go.

No image tearing and smoother pans.
Click to expand...

Shooting 30p is not really good in pal land since the electricity is 50Hz and you will get into flicker problems quite a bit while shooting. Also you have to be one of those that like the video look of 30p personally I hate it, I guess I'm old fassioned but I really do not like HFR and another reason to stay at lower frame rates is that 24p or 25p is less to compress/download or oposite more mb/frame. So to me with the same sized file 25p looks better / less compressed than 30p..

But that is all more about taste ofcourse.
 
David, I would have to say 23.976 plays back fine on all computers around the world too.

Really, 23.976 is standard, actual 24p files in the digital is REALLY uncommon, because so few digital originating cameras shot true 24p historically and no broadcast standard in existence accepts pure 24p. The only place pure 24p is standard playback rate for file based imagery is DCP.

Some playback software may SAY 24fps, but it is likely just rounding, and in terms of the difference in pull down processing between 23.976 on a 60hz screen and 24fps on a 60hz screen with a proper playback system is absolutely negligible.

Certainly as my day job is as a post production supervisor I can attest that starting with a 23.976 master is by far the most flexible to get to all other deliverables with the minimum of issues.

I have personally done numerous format conversion (PAL - NTSC, NTSC - PAL, 23.976 - 24P for DCP, 23.976p-30p using pull down etc using both hardware and software converters) and with every other starting point there is a compromise where you are going to end up with stutter, awkward time stretching, or unnecessary conversion.

I have also dealt with my share of format nightmares (50i PAL DV format quicktimes with 44.1khz audio converted from NTSC in a 48khz audio environment then upconverted to HD and weird consumer camera AVI files with bizarre matches of sampling and filming rates needed to be conversion). I've spent a LOT of time looking at motion artifacting, and having people questioning me on why what they have done looks weird and how to fix it, and have talked with other online editors and broadcast engineers about it.

Anyone who deals a lot with format conversions (like we do in New Zealand, where we are a PAL country but get a pretty even mix of shows from the UK and the US on primetime TV) will attest that 23.976 is the most flexible choice. You never need to make up frames or throw them away - and that's basically what it all comes down to.

In theory of course 24P should be just as good as 23.976, but because most NLE's never really were designed to default to 24p because it didn't match an existing broadcast standard, handing someone a true 24p file, unless it is a packaged DCP, is almost invariably a bad idea. Not because it's technically inferior, but because 99% of non DCP/Film centric workflows will do something to it in software that makes an incorrect assumption.
 
David, Steve, Bjorn, Craig, Frank

Thank you so much for your answers, all very very interesting. It looks like 23.976 will be the winner.

It's these sort of Answers that make Reduser such an amazing resource.

THANK YOU AGAIN GUYS!
 
Björn Benckert said:
Shooting 30p is not really good in pal land since the electricity is 50Hz and you will get into flicker problems quite a bit while shooting. Also you have to be one of those that like the video look of 30p personally I hate it, I guess I'm old fassioned but I really do not like HFR and another reason to stay at lower frame rates is that 24p or 25p is less to compress/download or oposite more mb/frame. So to me with the same sized file 25p looks better / less compressed than 30p..

.
Click to expand...

I totally agree with you regarding the 30p motion cadence, but even in Europe with 50HZ, (95%) computer monitors (not TVs) run at 60HZ.
So if you do only web delivery, 30FPS is just what the good doctor recommends (if you don't mind the HFR look). Flicker is easily fixed with shutter speed.
 
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