Tiered Partners...

[Steve Sanacore]

...and now we know why the new firmware has "Encryption of camera LOOK and LOG files."

Jim, if you've gone all Apple on us and locked the doors, please at least remember how much the 'little guys' have contributed to the community.

I hope and expect that once the dust settles you will allow everyone who has something to contribute access to the necessary code, file formats and encryption keys. And not just for those with official or approved projects, but for everybody. You would be shocked and surprised what some of us will come up with, given the keys to do it.

I truly believe open source development is the future and find it sad that you appear to be going the other way. You just might be surprised how much your loyal users could add to the utility and value of your systems at NO expense to your company. Let me restate that: Open sourcing your development gives you features and code for free!

Might I suggest having your official partners and certified software, but also allowing an unsupported open source branch of development?

It won't be much of a revolution if corporate America has all the keys.

I agree in spirit but I am not sure RED can afford to have novices trying to write software to render their raw images. Wouldn't they lose control of the quality?

 

[Joel Kaye]

Seems like a year ago FCP could run redcode on the timeline... There's still no R3D Color support. What progress is being made by Apple?

Ya know - a lot of great stuff is open source. Nobody cares if everything changes... developers can choose to play along knowing that will be the case if they want to. Users can test stuff knowing it might break in a week or the quality might stink.

No need to keep everyone "safe".

This is just software. The time space continuum is not at risk.

 

[David Groundwater]

dreadful news. just transferred half of the $32,000 i'm spending with you. feeling pretty crap about this. why should i have to buy a mac and fcp to use this camera? it's just not on. so much for the democratisation of film making.

 

[Christian Edwards]

Adobe .... TRUE 4k solution

 

[number6]

For a long time now, we have talked about ongoing development with regard to R3D support. As all of you know, we have been working very closely with Apple and ASSIMILATE from very early on to develop consistent workflows.

As part of expanding our workflows and our partner base, we are creating a tiered partner program that will roll out in full this year. This program will be how other companies can access R3D as is appropriate for them and for us. The first step is establishing RED Lead Development Partners. Apple and ASSIMLATE are the first and currently the only companies here. We have always said we will open up R3D to other partners, and we will. But we are going to do it right.

Initially, we planned to open R3D around NAB this year. But there are so many upcoming R3D improvements and changes that we need more time. The delay of Build 15, and the subsequent split of the image enhancements into Build 16 have set us back. We can't afford to miss anything, and we need to make sure everything is thoroughly tested throughout the image chain. We also have to insure backwards compatibility with all our apps. I know this delay will be disappointing to some, but it’ll be worth the wait. We are working hard to catch up and open up our community to partners that can deliver bulletproof workflows. To release too early would be catastrophic to all our customers.

Jim

"Always late, but worth the wait"

Is this an ichyPod Chrane issue? Did you make a bad bargain with the :devil: headless horseman:holloween: and now the:holloween: headless horseman:devil: demands his due?

 

[Brent J. Craig]

I agree in spirit but I am not sure RED can afford to have novices trying to write software to render their raw images. Wouldn't they lose control of the quality?

Open source development tends to follow 'survival of the fittest' rules. Why would someone choose to use firmware/software that gave them crap? The best ideas, coding and techniques tend to rise to the top. Less capable branches are killed off or improved further by the community.

 

[planet e]

Jim, you promised. Cut it however you want.

...have to agree this round. one of the things that i have long admired about this company is its integrity. this seems like a betrayal.

the camera seems to be working great. new features, new functions. the camera is great.

the workflow options, not so great.

this isn't just RED, it's the chokehold around the entire industry. i was reviewing some HDV footage yesterday that looked simply stunning on the monitor and could feel myself choking at the thought of outputting it to crappy SD-DVD to deliver to the client.

really, we don't even need better cameras anymore. the camera options out there are cooked, done, stick a fork in it.

we need better workflows and better delivery systems, period.

workflow and delivery seem light years behind what these cameras can do.

and RED's workflow options seem especially frustrating, because of who RED promised to be...why put the genie back in the bottle??????

seems like opening up the workflow sooner than later is the fast track to a great workflow.

 

[Joel Kaye]

why should i have to buy a mac and fcp to use this camera? it's just not on. so much for the democratisation of film making.

It does suck, but I sold my Mac and bought a PC in order to edit my HD-100 because I was convinced (and still am) it was a much better camera than the HVX. Now I've got a RED and I'm convinced it's a much better camera than anything I've ever shot. So whatever computer I need I'll get. I'm computer agnostic.

But it's clear to me RED doesn't work great on any computer yet... I think they need all the developer help they can get so I don't really understand this unless something else is going on.

 

[Charles Perkins]

I was told this would happen by a lot of people on this forum. I kept saying "Jim will keep his word" and so many people said "uh, no he won't".

It will be difficult for me to believe anything RED says again.

I feel bad for those waiting for a solution other than MAC or Scratch.

This is not about what's best for us, the customer, that's for sure. This is about control.

This sucks. Jim, you promised. Cut it however you want.

Forget it, it's not even worth typing about.

Jay

wow lol.

thats quite a lot of angst you have there.

Its been said from the beginning that red would work best on apple stuff first, but you went and built a PC.

It has also been said that red intend to support windows as well. if you cant wait you should have got a mac.

I'm sure that in the future that .r3d will work on a pc in premier or something, but if it is that important fro you, why didn't you buy a mac?

and you can always use redcine to output a format that you can work with/

 

[Matt Gottshalk]

...have to agree this round. one of the things that i have long admired about this company is its integrity. this seems like a betrayal.

the camera seems to be working great. new features, new functions. the camera is great.

the workflow options, not so great.

this isn't just RED, it's the chokehold around the entire industry. i was reviewing some HDV footage yesterday that looked simply stunning on the monitor and could feel myself choking at the thought of outputting it to crappy SD-DVD to deliver to the client.

really, we don't even need better cameras anymore. the camera options out there are cooked, done, stick a fork in it.

we need better workflows and better delivery systems, period.

workflow and delivery seem light years behind what these cameras can do.

and RED's workflow options seem especially frustrating, because of who RED promised to be...why put the genie back in the bottle??????

seems like opening up the workflow sooner than later is the fast track to a great workflow.

I have to agree with this. Hell, I AM a mac user, but leaving PC users out in the cold, where there only viable processing solution is SCRATCH is ridiculous.

Choices are good.

Proprietary work flows are not.

 

[David Groundwater]

Now I've got a RED and I'm convinced it's a much better camera than anything I've ever shot. So whatever computer I need I'll get. I'm computer agnostic.

i couldn't give a toss if i had to use a mac, pc or a fridge - i just happen already to own 4 pcs... and a fridge. but no mac.

 

[Jeff Brue]

Sometimes I wonder if everyone realizes how cutting edge Red and other daq camera teams are. As far as workflow is concerned, this is the way it is for now guys. Panasonics mxf format didn't work in all editing apps for well over a year, and hell I still can't get proper support of 10 bit RGB material in Final Cut, and no Adobe doesn't do everything particuarly well either.

Like it or not this is the right way to do it. If it wasn't Scratch it would be a lot more expensive than it is. No Apple's color is not an option, their core rendering has major rounding issues.

 

[Emmanuel Cambier]

Hey Guys… Chill out

Jim is just saying it is delayed.
As is FW 16, and I'm certain this is related.
They just said they need to rework RedCine and RedAlert and all R3D file managment to make it compatible with what's coming with FW 16.

So unless Jim says 3rd party support is not gonna happen in the next 6 months or so, there is nothing to get mad about…YET.

Emmanuel

 

[Stuart English]

Post Partners

Post Partners

...and now we know why the new firmware has "Encryption of camera LOOK and LOG files."

Jim, if you've gone all Apple on us and locked the doors, please at least remember how much the 'little guys' have contributed to the community.

I respect your opinion, but all I can suggest is that however you came to this conclusion, you go back and re-read Jim's post.

 

[Emmanuel Cambier]

i couldn't give a toss if i had to use a mac, pc or a fridge - i just happen already to own 4 pcs... and a fridge. but no mac.

That's a f…n' funny thing to read.

Thanks

Emmanuel

 

[laguun]

wow lol.
Its been said from the beginning that red would work best on apple stuff first, but you went and built a PC.

It has also been said that red intend to support windows as well. if you cant wait you should have got a mac.

I'm sure that in the future that .r3d will work on a pc in premier or something, but if it is that important fro you, why didn't you buy a mac?

Apple Final Cut is limited to 2K. The camera is 4K. You have to -hack- it to near 4K.

Apple color doesnt work with redcode, and is also restricted to 2K.

Final Cut doesn not support 12bit RGB, or 10bit RGB. It supports 8bit.

The redcode online/finishing solution is on Windows, not available for osx.
All 4K realtime systems are not on apple, but on windows and linux.

Adobe CS3 supports 4K. With 16/15bit RGB precision. All these technical limitations Apple has for RED are solved there. Only RED still doesnt allow support for redcode, even if it is 100% clear that Adobe CS isnt limiting the red camera in quality, Apple FCS is.

I wouldnt care if i would buy a pc from apple withosx or a pc from boxx with windows or a hewlett-packard with linux.

The problems is - we dont have a redcode 4K editing on -neither- platform, only a offline editing on osx and a 2K display on windows an an price point which locks out almost any user below studios of our size. We can buy $$$.$$$ systems if i need so, and have several here. But the postproduction "solution" as it is now is simply to much of a step backward compared to the workflows we have now.

 

[Andrew M.]

wow lol.



and you can always use redcine to output a format that you can work with/

You must be kidding!?

Try to use REDCINE on PC to output any format like TIF or DPX.
I wish you good luck, because you will need a lot of it to finish even 4 minutes clip.

 

[Brent J. Craig]

I respect your opinion, but all I can suggest is that however you came to this conclusion, you go back and re-read Jim's post.

So encrypting stuff has absolutely no relation to protecting big partners and locking out smaller innovators?

 

[Joel Kaye]

i couldn't give a toss if i had to use a mac, pc or a fridge - i just happen already to own 4 pcs... and a fridge. but no mac.

Heh - me too. I'm not saying it doesn't suck... in my case I haven't bought a computer in a couple years so I'm kinda due anyway. I've been holding off specifically because of RED. I knew I'd update based on what happened. I still can see that a PC with Cineform may be a superior solution to Mac and FCP when it arrives.

Really, if you want to play well with others it'll help to have both platforms - and with a Mac you've got bootcamp. Well, theoretically - I'm not sure how well that really works.

 

[Steve Sanacore]

Open source development tends to follow 'survival of the fittest' rules. Why would someone choose to use firmware/software that gave them crap? The best ideas, coding and techniques tend to rise to the top. Less capable branches are killed off or improved further by the community.

If this is true, then I am in agreement with opening it up to the public for solutions. One thing is certain - there needs to be a fast and universal solution to post the raw data.