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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Thoughts on the future of Scarlet and its Package...

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Michael J. Underwood said:
+1 About two years ago, a big camera maker discovered what happens when you democratize the tools of cinema, yet no one has capitalized on it yet. What has always impressed me about the Scarlet program is that it seems aimed at smaller operations which will suddenly have access to tools that used to be prohibitively expensive. What happens is scarlet is afforable? Image making gets better, story telling gets better and expectations rise as well. An expensive scarlet that's just a toy for the big boys to add to their arsenal? Far less interesting proposition.
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agree 100%. i've been thinking about this "democratizing" of the industry and that is becoming the most frustrating part of waiting for Scarlet as prices escalate.
 
Nuka Wølk said:
To be realistic you have to expect a price increase or you will probably be disappointed
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Yes Nuka you are correct.

But As I see it, the people that are upset at the price increases are probably the people who, like me, maybe don't have a ton of money for spend on a Scarlet at the increased price. And the people who say they don't have a problem with the price incrases and they would gladly pay more, are probably the same people have that have that extra couple of thousand dollars to shell out for the Scarlet at the supposed increased price.

Who's not going to be disappointed with a price that may more then triple the price of what it was introduced as. I completely understand they have added a lot to it and that most if not all of the price increases are out of their control, but the simple fact is that $10k is a lot of money for some of us especially when we thought it was going to cost a lot less in the very very very beginning. You better believe we going to be at lease a little disappointed.

But can you fault us for complaining that maybe at the increased price we can no longer afford a camera like the Scarlet? Because I think we can all agree that the fall in specs from the Scarlet to the next best thing in its price range is a big one.
 
Tim Nitsch said:
And the people who say they don't have a problem with the price incrases and they would gladly pay more, are probably the same people have that have that extra couple of thousand dollars to shell out for the Scarlet at the supposed increased price.
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Not in my case. $7,000 is really stretching it for me. $10,000 *might* be possible if I pull out all of the stops and just cut out all other spending for a year or so. Over $10,000, and I'll probably just have to forget it.

But, that doesn't mean that I won't understand why they have to increase the price if they do. I mean, it's a business, and they have a track record of treating customers VERY well, so if they do raise the price significantly, I will feel like they must have had a very good reason.

But, maybe a thread like this will inspire them to provide an even more bare bones option. Someone suggested a "dumb" side handle on another thread and maybe they can do things like that to provide a super bare bones system with just the Scarlet Fixed, a dumb side handle w/battery, an LCD, and a Side SSD with CF Converter.
 
Tim Nitsch said:
Yes Nuka you are correct.

But As I see it, the people that are upset at the price increases are probably the people who, like me, maybe don't have a ton of money for spend on a Scarlet at the increased price. And the people who say they don't have a problem with the price incrases and they would gladly pay more, are probably the same people have that have that extra couple of thousand dollars to shell out for the Scarlet at the supposed increased price.

Who's not going to be disappointed with a price that may more then triple the price of what it was introduced as. I completely understand they have added a lot to it and that most if not all of the price increases are out of their control, but the simple fact is that $10k is a lot of money for some of us especially when we thought it was going to cost a lot less in the very very very beginning. You better believe we going to be at lease a little disappointed.

But can you fault us for complaining that maybe at the increased price we can no longer afford a camera like the Scarlet? Because I think we can all agree that the fall in specs from the Scarlet to the next best thing in its price range is a big one.
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As I see, nobody really has a reason to complain. The price points that were thrown out there, were never final - just "ballpark" estimates. No matter what anyone says or thinks - the SCARLET, as it has become now, will come at an incredible price. If people can't see that, then they don't understand what they are asking RED for - or complaining about for that matter.

I'm not trying to excuse on behalf of RED - if they feel that they owe anyone an excuse(and I don't think that they do at all), then I leave it to them to do so. Do I think that RED has handled things perfectly? Not at all, but tell me - who does anything perfectly - no one, right - 'caus we're all human, and that's one of the charming and identifiable appeals of RED I think. And the way RED does business is VERY different from anyone else - I respect that.

Do they get in trouble for it? Sure! I think that's evident if you just take a quick look through this forum. They've also decided to take some new precautions - like posting less - to no news at all about what they are doing, to avoid situations like customers getting confused and frustrated about different price points getting thrown at them.

Keep kicking RED about this though isn't gonna help anyone - it's just gonna make all the hard work and hassle that RED is doing to get these fantastic machines out to the people that much more sour and unappreciated...And remember, they still haven't made any official final pricing! Perhaps time for miracles isn't over just yet! ;D
 
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Steven Hammer said:
And correct me if I'm wrong (I can't remember for sure), but was the $5,750 price was before HDRx?
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No the price before the HDRx addition was $4,750. HDRx brought that up to $5,750, although I don't know if that was ever an official price. My recollection is that Jim Jannard said HDRx would add about a grand to the price, so $5,750 became the unofficial price.
 
Lawrence Bansbach said:
No the price before the HDRx addition was $4,750. HDRx brought that up to $5,750, although I don't know if that was ever an official price. My recollection is that Jim Jannard said HDRx would add about a grand to the price, so $5,750 became the unofficial price.
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Correct.
 
There are quite a few entry level pro video cameras in the $6k-$10k range. Canon XF300 series, Sony EX1-Ex3, etc. The new FS100 and AF100 larger sensor cameras also realistically fall in this range by the time you add decent lenses to the package. This is not including basic accessories like batteries and media that you will also need.
A barebones starter package for the fixed Scarlet will realistically fall in that general price range. Even when it was announced at $3k, you would still have needed significant media and accessories to really make the camera useful. I never thought Scarlet would be any less than the low end pro video cams in the same general market range.
 
I think the part of this thread that bothers me the most is not the idea of a price increase -- it's that $10,000 was sort of arbitrarily thrown out there as an acceptable price for a Scarlet package, and that that post became the nucleus of a new price point. I'd like to see a breakdown of that price, and the justification for it.
 
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It would behoove those old enough to remember (an might be educational for those that aren't) that an HVX-200 at the time of it's launch was right in that $6,000 price range sans P2 media. A Serious working package for that camera easily came to $10,000 rather quickly.

When one considers what a technological advancement Scarlet represents to cameras in that price range of 5 years ago (and to what else is available today even), it puts things into perspective a little.
 
no one puts pressure on red like red do unto themselves ... judging by the track record, it'll be the best price they can make it
 
The problem I see when people say "well Scarlet is worth "X" because nothing else on the market has anything close to those specs".... well, Scarlet is not on the market!

We might still be another year away from that point, who really knows?.. who is to say that a Sony F3 would not be around the $10k mark, at that point. Or some new camera will be launched.

I'm all for Scarlet... that's why i'm here.... but I get tired of hearing about how it is light years ahead of everything else, when it is not actually launched.
 
Leo Sardello said:
It would behoove those old enough to remember (an might be educational for those that aren't) that an HVX-200 at the time of it's launch was right in that $6,000 price range sans P2 media. A Serious working package for that camera easily came to $10,000 rather quickly.

When one considers what a technological advancement Scarlet represents to cameras in that price range of 5 years ago (and to what else is available today even), it puts things into perspective a little.
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Well said. Based on the little we have seen so far, I expect Scarlet's image quality to be in a class with the Sony F800/900 Cine Altas or the upper level Panasonic Varicams. This is the class of camera I have aspired to but never been able to afford to own, beginning with the original Sony Betacams. Thanks to Red and Scarlet that dream could finally become a reality. Even better, Scarlet will likely surpass the resolution and DR of S16mm film with HDRx. I sympathize with those for whom Scarlet may be too expensive. It is pushing my budget limits very hard too since for me it is more of a serious hobby camera. But I wouldn't truly be satisfied with any of the alternatives under $10k, regardless of sensor size. I don't like AVCHD or any of the other low end video codecs. I've learned enough playing around with Redcine-X and a few Red .r3d files to know that raw acquisition is where I want to be, period.
 
Jim Retar said:
The problem I see when people say "well Scarlet is worth "X" because nothing else on the market has anything close to those specs".... well, Scarlet is not on the market!

We might still be another year away from that point, who really knows?.. who is to say that a Sony F3 would not be around the $10k mark, at that point. Or some new camera will be launched.

I'm all for Scarlet... that's why i'm here.... but I get tired of hearing about how it is light years ahead of everything else, when it is not actually launched.
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So you get tired of hearing other peoples opinion on a forum ... ?

Although the camera isn't out yet, pointing out the specs in a argument about the SCARLET is at this point valid in my opinion. It's a shame though that you get tired of hearing it on a public forum.

Sorry, but it seems more likely to me that you just have a problem with accepting the more than likely pending reality of the SCARLET's final increased pricing compared to the estimated price points that were fantastically ambitious as I see it, then you have with other peoples opinions in here...

Hopefully people in here won't get tired of listening to you and your opinions...
 
Thanks for the negativity!

All i'm saying is let's try to keep this place a more rational, thought out forum.

I have no problem with the price increase, btw.... I have been toying with the idea of Epic-M for some time, but is overkill for my business.... money is not my primary focus, quality is.
 
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Jim Retar said:
Thanks for the negativity!

All i'm saying it let's try to keep this place a more rational, thought out forum.

I have no problem with the price increase, btw.... I have been toying with the idea of Epic-M for some time, but is overkill for my business.... money is not my primary focus, quality is.
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Chill buddy, no one's attacking you or anything like that. Whatever man. Hope you have a nice life...
 
Regarding the Side Handle. Really glad RED is considering a "dumber" one with just an on/record/off button. Couple of suggestions I'd like to make as a future Fixed user:

1. Please make it pivot forward and backward, and maybe even have the pivot point slide up and down. This will make the Fixed a more compact and versatile handheld camera - eliminating the need for some other accessories. If it could also have one programmable rocker and one or two user buttons, that would be even better. I hope it will still be able to hold a Redvolt.

2. Make the "dumber" handle standard on the Fixed package in order to keep the price down. The original DSMC side handle seems to me to be useful mainly for stills use. Any serious commercial stills shooter will need the megapixels and lens selection of Epic, so including the fully capable DSMC side handle with a Scarlet Fixed or Cinema package seems redundant and uneconomical given the inclusion of the touchscreen and Redmote.

Regarding pricing: I wouldn't expect RED to base Scarlet package pricing on the 2011 price list. It's one thing for RED to lose money on a few thousand(?) accessories sold to EPIC M/X buyers. It would be quite a different thing for RED to lose that same amount ($800 per side handle alone!!) to 10,000+(?) Scarlet buyers. When it's all worked out, I hope it still feels like Fixed buyers are getting a free brain with a cine-quality 8x robotic lens.

So what do others think about a dumber handle for the Fixed as standard equipment?
 
Time to close this thread. Also time to respect people that have been here for a long time.
It really makes me think about Jim's statement on scarlet being aimed at professionals.
I agreed then and agree a lot more today.
 
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