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[mike falconer]

Is anyone with experience willing to take a stab at estimating a per minute cost to produce a one hour doc in HD for a national cable channel?

I have only been able to get one opinion which was "$2000 per finished minute X 48 minutes or $96,000.

I know that it's difficult to make an estimate when you don't know the circumstances, but I can say that it is a one location deal, approximately 6 shooting days in HD with a crew of three, no actors, no locations costs, little or no travel or lodging expenses, no other labor costs including scripting.

I can run the numbers on renting equipment and shooters day rates...it's the offline/online post out to D5, sweetening and audio work that stops me.

If anyone can lend anything to this, I would be very appreciative. Very rough guesses will work just fine.

 

[Tom Lowe]

I guess you need to think about music? Narrator? Are you guys editing it yourselves?

There are a lot of experienced doc shooters here who can answer your questions.

 

[Paul Hazlett]

you also have to figure in things like Ae effects work or maybe 3D and how involved that is, Alot of times that is separate from pure editing.

Most post houses around here charge 200 an hour for basic editing and the
big boys 400 so....

 

[Tom Lowe]

phaz, are you talking about title graphics and whatnot?

 

[mike falconer]

Good points. Narrator is already covered, music will have to be bought and we we will edit it ourselves up to the point that we take the hard drive off to a post house for finishing. We also have to cover some light CG work...maybe about $3k worth.

 

[mike falconer]

I might also mention that we have our own editing bay that can handle the HD and we have the ability to work with AE. Our CG needs are some simple non 3d graphics inside the program.

 

[Paul Hazlett]

If you can find a post house that can import your edl then online would be relatively quick and painless, Audio sweetning is a different story. There are
plenty of folks that can help you with that.

Can I ask what format HD you are editing in? Because if you can edit in HD
all you need to do is rent the deck, in fact I know plenty of companies that have delivered the d5 master after a quick dub from hdcam or dvc pro HD
without a complaint, just depends on how strict the network is.

 

[Paul Hazlett]

phaz, are you talking about title graphics and whatnot?

title graphics, animated maps, backgrounds for text, anything like that.

 

[mike falconer]

If you can find a post house that can import your edl then online would be relatively quick and painless, Audio sweetning is a different story. There are
plenty of folks that can help you with that.

Can I ask what format HD you are editing in? Because if you can edit in HD
all you need to do is rent the deck, in fact I know plenty of companies that have delivered the d5 master after a quick dub from hdcam or dvc pro HD
without a complaint, just depends on how strict the network is.

We're still sorting out the workflow. If we don't use the red, then we're looking at DVDpro HD. That could change dependent upon the budget of course.

 

[Tom Lowe]

Good points. Narrator is already covered, music will have to be bought and we we will edit it ourselves up to the point that we take the hard drive off to a post house for finishing. We also have to cover some light CG work...maybe about $3k worth.

What were you planning to do for music, BTW?

Just FYI: if you are willing to spend the time, you can find really great music on myspace and the artists are almost always willing to let you use it for free, or for next to nothing, to get it included in a legit production. They just want to get their stuff out there.

I guess there is always royalty free music as well.

 

[mike falconer]

Thanks for the tip on myspace. Did'nt know about that.It's a lot more interesting to work with musicians directly than it is to use royalty free. But, again we'll see what the budget allows...

 

[Tom Lowe]

the problem with myspace is that 90% of the music is crap, so you have to spend time sifting through it to find the gems.

 

[Rob Gardner]

Cable hours go from $125,000 to $350,000 give or take, depending on how much they want it and what the production will entail. Sometimes important event programs go for more. Post production costs can be reduced by finding production companies who own finishing equipment, but are not using it. Keep in mind that you production will have to pass network QC and saving money on finishing services can mean you are doing it over and over again. The QC guys are merciless. Most on-line houses use something like the Harris Legalizer, which keeps all video levels to network standards (whichever network it is). If your master tape is not video legal, it will come back and you will have to do it again. Same with audio. Keep in mind also that all elements (graphics, music, archival stills,whatever) must have the rights cleared based on the contract with the network (all uses, all technologies now known or to be devised, in perpetuity). Everybody has their own language, but thats what most of them want. Another potentially very expensive element is the nature of the production executive that you would be working with. If they want you to recut your show five times, you are going to have to recut your show five times. If they micro manage you to death, it can be very expensive. Any production should have a contingency line in the budget of 5 or 10 percent (or more depending on the nature of the production). Many entry level producers talk themselves into doing shows for very little money or for a tiny profit margin, hoping to "get their foot in the door". Often they desperatly wish, after watching the money go up the chimney, that they could get their foot out of the door while they still have a foot. Good luck.
Rob Gardner

 

[mike falconer]

GFIrob...thanks for the information. If I read your post correctly you are describing a production that someone does for the network and is paid for by network?
So, $125K to $350K would be what the network would paying a production company for, I assume.
In our case, we have independent funding and will be presenting the program as a finished product to the network or more likely to an agent for distribution.
Does that change anything you've said? Thanks.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Mike, How much is your budget? $100,000 doesn't sound too far off for a mid-level doc, but there are a lot of variables. How much travel, location fees, permits, music rights, stock footage amount, stereo or 5.1 surround mix, etc.

Without a line item budget and details, it's a bit tough to take a stab at this. Also, if to be shot on RED, workflow has to be factored in.

 

[mike falconer]

Mike, How much is your budget? $100,000 doesn't sound too far off for a mid-level doc, but there are a lot of variables. How much travel, location fees, permits, music rights, stock footage amount, stereo or 5.1 surround mix, etc.

Without a line item budget and details, it's a bit tough to take a stab at this. Also, if to be shot on RED, workflow has to be factored in.

Yes, this is a very broad question but I've already learned something in this thread and that is that the end question that I really want to find out is anyone's input on what a cable channel is likely to pay for a completed one hour HD program. (assuming of course, that it is acceptable content to them)

I'm going to start a new post with this re-phrased question and move the discussion to that so as not to be too confusing.