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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Thinking about buying an Epic Dragon. Am I insane?

Sabyasachi Patra said:
This is an extremely good suggestion. There are lot of struggling script writers. You can always get a good script if you try to look around.

Due to lot of people buying epics, perhaps thinking it is a way to salvation, the rental rates offered by people are ridiculous. The packages are offered at less than 1% of the cost. There can't be a greater madness than this. Camera's depreciate. In this economy it is not a very wise decision to invest in depreciating assets unless you are a business who can write it off and unless you are making steady income from it.
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Actually GOOD script writers are very, very hard to find.
 
real talk....


unless you have the client base already intact, and can rent your camera out enough to pay it off in a year, You will most likely not pay it off with rentals.

the tech industry is moving to quickly.. the next new thing will be right around the corner and the rental market will shift towards that.. also... REDs are a dime a dozen.. very hard to make money when you see guys advertising on craigslist for 400/day including themselves as "DP" operator.. or "DIT"

get the camera if you plan on using for the next 5 years for your projects and think you can make money with it...

if your more interested in long term money making possibilities.. take that 60k and invest in glass...

the 12:1 optimo is a workhorse.. on every set im on.. you might be able to find a used one for 60kish.. probably a little more.. but it will always be a money maker
 
Karl Kim said:
Don't do it Art. email me direct for a long winded opinion.
Karl, Local 600 NYC based dp
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Karl is the man. I don't know what he has to say, but I usually agree with his sentiments!


The camera market right now is extremely volatile. I think there are many better ways to get ROI. There may be more people who own cameras than people who want to rent them. (I should add, and who can pay at least a decent rental rate)
 
I second what Tony said...the market is extremely volatile; technology is improving at a rapid pace, prices are dropping, and depreciation is at an all time high.

I considered Scarlet > Scarlet Dragon, and would only need to put up about $4,500 for the upgrade (I have a basic R1 MX package that I'd sell), but I took a blow on some Sony gear in 2012 that changed the way I'll spend on cameras forever. I lost a small fortune and was devastated. Red holds it's value much better than Sony...like Apple vs. PC, but the volatility and risk is still there...ex. a flood of BT Epics through Red.com could cripple your resale value.

That being said, switching to Red from DSLR was one of the biggest steps I've made in my career. The image is simply more "pro", and the ISO 800 ordeal will force you to become a much, much better DP. You'll light like DPs of the past instead of 'cheating' by flipping through ISOs.

If you really want to go Red, I'd go for a Scarlet or Epic. The quality increase from DSLR is still significant. To start from scratch and drop $60k with the market's current state is not a good idea IMO, especially if you don't have a slew of high end clients knocking at your door. If you're hellbent on spending $60k, spend some of that on gear that doesn't depreciate so quickly...glass, filters, lighting, rigs.

Hope that helps!
 
Ryan Lightbourn said:
...I considered Scarlet > Scarlet Dragon, and would only need to put up about $4,500 for the upgrade (I have a basic R1 MX package that I'd sell), but I took a blow on some Sony gear in 2012 that changed the way I'll spend on cameras forever...
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What was it..an F3 ?
 
I spent many long hours researching and considering this same idea and came to the realization that the market is quite saturated. I think the key now is defining one's self either by skill set and/or accompanying gear. Bjorn's reply was to this point I think - their vertical integration with post and also something highly specialized like the Milo allowed them to recoup their investment. I think a bare bones package will be tough to rent out and I've seen very low offers in some markets - as low as $250/day with an operator.
 
I just lost a rental (already my price was very low) from someone who offered their Epic fully kitted, lenses AND a Steadycam for $400 for the day....yep...$400. Rental markets are dead as dead can be with people giving away their gear for free just to get the job.
 
Paul Harb said:
I just lost a rental (already my price was very low) from someone who offered their Epic fully kitted, lenses AND a Steadycam for $400 for the day....yep...$400. Rental markets are dead as dead can be with people giving away their gear for free just to get the job.
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And it's so cheap to rent that why buy becomes another question. Just rent for $250 or whatever when you are shooting. How many days at $250 to get to $30 000? A lot of days, I think. (Actually, 120 - we shoot about 4 days a month on average, so that's 30 months, or almost 3 years - just to break even, not to mention that we don;t have to make that initial investment all at once which helps with cash flow.

Seeing Red's recent price-drops , that Dragon might be selling for half its price in 6 months - you just don't know.
 
Paul Harb said:
I just lost a rental (already my price was very low) from someone who offered their Epic fully kitted, lenses AND a Steadycam for $400 for the day....yep...$400. Rental markets are dead as dead can be with people giving away their gear for free just to get the job.
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They'll get what they deserve with that bottom-feeding Steadicam op.
 
Hey Art,

I travel in and out of Richmond doing corporate work with my Scarlet.
 
In my humble opinion - Go big or go home

BUT... consider your market: Who has them (are they on every corner or are they primarily in the hands of rental houses and production companies)? How much are they renting for? Do you have the client base or marketing in place to maximize your investment?

I can't help but give the caveat that the return on investment on my 5D is insane - I do not think an Epic in the average market can give that kind of return and ease.

I love my epics and they have been work horses and an awesome investment - Most importantly it is amazing to have those kind of tools at your disposal to test, train, and shoot projects you just want to shoot (build one's reel).

If money is a true secondary priority then buy it and enjoy it and the amazing options it will give you and your work.
 
Art, as you know, I own the local rental house here in Richmond. If you ever need any camera gear, it's available for rent. If you buy, you'll be stuck using only what you own, and it will become obsolete before you know it. Max
 
Paul Harb said:
I just lost a rental (already my price was very low) from someone who offered their Epic fully kitted, lenses AND a Steadycam for $400 for the day....yep...$400. Rental markets are dead as dead can be with people giving away their gear for free just to get the job.
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They don't have to be dead. People will pay a higher price for something of higher quality. Chances are if some bozo is renting out his entire package for $400 a day he's not doing that great of a job. Make something better, people will pay more. Simple economics.
 
Great Points on all accounts, I'm going the same route with a Epic for now and a Dragon upgrade in the future.
 
NAB2014. NAB2014!!:emote_happyhappy::emote_happyhappy::emote_happyhappy::emote_happyhappy:NAB2014. NAB2014!!:driving:
 
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