Thinking about buying an Epic Dragon. Am I insane?

[Art Chong]

I read through this thread rather quickly so pardon me if I missed something but I didn't see where anyone pointed out to you the length of time you will likely be waiting before you can even by an Epic Dragon. I think you might have to wait quite some time - behind a variety of people trading and upgrading - before you will see one shipping from the RED store. Just a thought. :smiley:

I totally understand. It's kind of why I'm thinking about it now so that I'm not making a rush decision when it does become available for purchase.

 

[Art Chong]

If I were you, I'd just get whatever the upcoming Dragonized Scarlet is and then use that for a while, so you can amass knowledge about the camera/workflow without too much of an initial investment as that body will certainly meet your needs. Then you can move up when you really feel it's worth it and the cost will likely be significantly less expensive after Epic Dragon has been on the market for a while.

The thing about that is, as far as I can tell, we have literally no idea when Scarlet Dragons are going to happen. If Scarlets are supposed to be Epic chips that can't achieve Epic speeds, then it's anybody's guess when supply is going to build up enough for Scarlet Dragons to be available en masse. I'd rather not plan around a camera that has no definitive release date. (Yes, I understand that Epic Dragon's dates can fluctuate depending on sensor yields as well, but at least upgrades has started on those)

 

[Paul Schneider]

Hi Art,

One thing I can say from experience about rentals is it's not entirely about the camera. In order to consistently rent a package out either in an owner/operator position or as a third party option you'll need to have a complete kit ready to go... and that kit should include a solid set of PL glass and all the trimmings that come along with that.

I know many, many people with Scarlets and Epics to rent in LA. The only ones who consistantly get the nod are those that make it easy for producers to book, and renting a camera from one source and lenses and/or support equipment from a secondary source is not optimal for most.

I work quite a bit and on some decently budgeted projects, but after about 18months I've only just paid off my Scarlet. Living in LA there are just so many of these cams out there, making the rates quite low.

 

[PatrickFaith]

Richmond is a interesting market with a lot of corporate and government gigs, what I'd try to do is first upscale your clients & gigs where they expect feature film camera's instead of vdslr's - a goal could be get 20% of your jobs would require epics (then renting for that 20%). Once you've upscaled your clients/gigs where they start expecting the higher end equipment, then it makes financial sense to get the epic. Having said that, I think if your committed to a dream, then you should follow it, or you will go insane.

 

[Timur Civan]

I want to direct and fund my own projects (crazy, I know) and I want to own my own means of production. If the Dragon delivers on its promises (and I have no reason to think that it won't) I think the dynamic range, resolution, framerate and formfactor makes the Epic Dragon the pinnacle of the modern digital cinema camera. Short of global shutter without the motion mount, I do not see what else we could possibly want without rethinking the technology behind digital cameras in general.

Do I sound completely insane? What are your thoughts as professionals in the industry?


Thank you ahead of time.

Why not make 6 10,000$ shorts. This will get you a chance to maybe even direct a feature on someone else's dime. Hire a DP with a dragon, and focus on directing. Owning a camera will mean you need to wait 24months under perfect circumstances just to start to save money towards a film...

 

[Neil Cronin]

Your enthusiasm for shooting is both inspiring and clear.

I would encourage you to really understand the new constraints you are getting into with a Red camera. I went from a 5dii to a Red camera, and there were some surprising aspects to it.

(I'm about to list some of those constraints, but they are not complaints. My Epic is my favorite camera that I have ever owned, and I have never used a better camera for me.)

I don't have much to say about a business plan or ROI, because I have none. I just love shooting on my cameras.

Here we go:

- Epic is *much* larger than a 5d. Yes, you can hand hold it the same way, and it's basically the same shape, but it is probably ~4x the volume, and ~4x the weight once you attach the absolute bare minimum that you need to actually capture footage.

- Powering an Epic is much more logistically difficult than powering a 5d. I have almost $1,000 worth of batteries for my Epic, but when wall sockets are not available, it's very stressful to wait for *anything* to happen while the camera powered on whilst not shooting. 5d powers down and boots up instantly, but an Epic takes much more time. If I'm on a street shooting, I am constantly trying to predict if we are about to wait *more* than a minute, or *less* than a minute, so I can know if I should power down to save a few 10s of seconds of battery life. Guessing wrong in that case can be a huge blunder. Even if you have unlimited money for batteries, they don't weigh nothing, and someone has to carry them around. I've gone into the woods for days at a time with a 5d and several batteries, and those 5d batteries basically do weigh nothing, and they do basically last all those days.

- Red camera firmware, although very nice, is niche and it shows (upon boot up, a friend of mine pointed and said, "look! linux!"). Prepare to invest a lot of time so you know how to use the camera in the field on the spot. If a second camera shows up that breaks your assumptions about the geometry of the shoot, you had better know how to dial in the right geometry at the right res without burning through all your batteries in the process. This might take weeks or longer for you to learn how to do. I'm still not sure I could do it cold.

- Post, although *way* easier than I imagined, is much more involved than 5d footage. You can basically copy a CF card from a 5d and drop it into Final Cut/Premiere/Avid whatever and go, but you are somewhat bending those tools a bit with Red footage. With all of my shooting with a 5d, I never waited much longer than an hour for something to happen. With Red footage, sometimes an overnight render is needed. I intermix 5d footage with Epic footage, and I have to treat them differently with Final Cut, which is a pain. If I had 2 or 3 Epics, it would be less of a pain because all the footage would be treated the same.

- Post, although people say you can get high quality playback, you really can't. I have a Mac Pro with 12 cores and 48GB of RAM, and it's useless trying to do playback of 5K at "50% quality". I can play a couple seconds, but that's it. This really hurts editing and grading more than you might expect. You're a programmer, so maybe you are familiar with the "save/compile/run" loop. The longer that is, the worse off you are, quadratically.

- Post, although *way* more similar to still photography, is much more involved than 5d footage. I am a Lightroom power user, and I understand a lot about digital imagery, but I am still stymied with processing my MX footage. I read up on threads here to try to fix that.

- Epic/Scarlet are strangely shaped camera bodies. Finding the right rigging/rails/dinguses for a particular setup can be surprisingly elusive. This is a great forum for that, but be prepared for a whole new level of TLAs. I have spent a lot of time trying to bend my existing rails etc to work, only to finally give up and buy more crap.

- An Epic would dwarf the cost and/or the value of your other gear, which makes it an anxiety focus in the field. If you have a 5d + $3k of other gear, the 5d is only "50%" of your stuff. If you have an Epic Dragon with $3k of other gear, your Dragon is now pretty much the only thing you need to care about from a financial point of view. This imbalance is an emotionally perceptual one, but it really does matter, to me at least. I've lost track of nice gear because I am hyper focused on not losing my camera body.

- I don't have a Dragon, but I do have a 5diii. The 5diii does not shoot footage as nice as an Epic, but it also doesn't break as hard at its limits. I can easily go outside in California with a 5d at noon or midnight and get something. Shooting an Epic at full-sun noon in California requires ND filters, pretty much. Shooting at midnight requires lights, pretty much. Dragon might change this, but for now, 5diii has a wider usable range than the MX.

- Blackshading. Ugh.


With all of that said, the first footage I shot from my MX camera that *I actually personally shot* absolutely blew me away. I had never seen anything like that from any camera I had ever owned. Here are some nice surprises from going from a 5d to an MX Red camera:

- The footage is unbelievably great.

- The camera is very simple to operate (but you have to know the details).

- EF mount is awesome and Just Works(tm) for every lens I have thrown onto it. (I believe Nikon and Sigma users are more vocally disappointed in their options... I have no idea about that.)

- Red media is bullet proof, I've never dropped a frame or lost a shot.

- Redcine-X is very thoughtfully designed, and matches my expectations for what digital imaging is.

- Third party .r3d interpretation is spreading very fast.

- If you ever want an ice breaker with a 14 year old skateboarder, a Red camera is my first choice.


I would not dissuade you from going for an MX or Dragon by any means, but I would encourage you to rent a Scarlet and take a week off of work to feel out the new constraints you will be facing. Scrarlet MX is going to be very close to an Epic Dragon in terms of these constraints.

I have not done so, but I believe you can rent a Scarlet by mail fairly easily.

I wouldn't dump ~$60k into a camera until I knew about the basics, even if I had the best laid plans to recoup my costs. I don't think you can know the basics until you have lived them.

-n

 

[Art Chong]

Why not make 6 10,000$ shorts. This will get you a chance to maybe even direct a feature on someone else's dime. Hire a DP with a dragon, and focus on directing. Owning a camera will mean you need to wait 24months under perfect circumstances just to start to save money towards a film...

Good question and very to-the-heart of the matter. It's because I think I'm terrible at writing shorts. I'm much more comfortable with longer forms of writing. I'm consistently amazed by the conciseness and clarity of the ideas which people are able to put into their shorts. My ideas tend to be larger in scope and require more build-up than 10-20 pages.

That said, I'm in prep for a short/web series pilot as we speak, so let's be clear, I'm not just sitting around waiting for Dragon to become available.

 

[Guy Staley]

...if your committed to a dream, then you should follow it, or you will go insane.

I think this may be my new signature motto! Words to live an d die by!

 

[Art Chong]

Thanks Neil for taking the time to write all that. It's helpful from a slightly different perspective. Some of it I already knew from working with other people's Epics and messing with R3D's on my own, but it's nice to get a refresher in any case.

Your enthusiasm for shooting is both inspiring and clear.

I would encourage you to really understand the new constraints you are getting into with a Red camera. I went from a 5dii to a Red camera, and there were some surprising aspects to it.

(I'm about to list some of those constraints, but they are not complaints. My Epic is my favorite camera that I have ever owned, and I have never used a better camera for me.)

I don't have much to say about a business plan or ROI, because I have none. I just love shooting on my cameras.

Here we go:

- Epic is *much* larger than a 5d. Yes, you can hand hold it the same way, and it's basically the same shape, but it is probably ~4x the volume, and ~4x the weight once you attach the absolute bare minimum that you need to actually capture footage.

- Powering an Epic is much more logistically difficult than powering a 5d. I have almost $1,000 worth of batteries for my Epic, but when wall sockets are not available, it's very stressful to wait for *anything* to happen while the camera powered on whilst not shooting. 5d powers down and boots up instantly, but an Epic takes much more time. If I'm on a street shooting, I am constantly trying to predict if we are about to wait *more* than a minute, or *less* than a minute, so I can know if I should power down to save a few 10s of seconds of battery life. Guessing wrong in that case can be a huge blunder. Even if you have unlimited money for batteries, they don't weigh nothing, and someone has to carry them around. I've gone into the woods for days at a time with a 5d and several batteries, and those 5d batteries basically do weigh nothing, and they do basically last all those days.

- Red camera firmware, although very nice, is niche and it shows (upon boot up, a friend of mine pointed and said, "look! linux!"). Prepare to invest a lot of time so you know how to use the camera in the field on the spot. If a second camera shows up that breaks your assumptions about the geometry of the shoot, you had better know how to dial in the right geometry at the right res without burning through all your batteries in the process. This might take weeks or longer for you to learn how to do. I'm still not sure I could do it cold.

- Post, although *way* easier than I imagined, is much more involved than 5d footage. You can basically copy a CF card from a 5d and drop it into Final Cut/Premiere/Avid whatever and go, but you are somewhat bending those tools a bit with Red footage. With all of my shooting with a 5d, I never waited much longer than an hour for something to happen. With Red footage, sometimes an overnight render is needed. I intermix 5d footage with Epic footage, and I have to treat them differently with Final Cut, which is a pain. If I had 2 or 3 Epics, it would be less of a pain because all the footage would be treated the same.

- Post, although people say you can get high quality playback, you really can't. I have a Mac Pro with 12 cores and 48GB of RAM, and it's useless trying to do playback of 5K at "50% quality". I can play a couple seconds, but that's it. This really hurts editing and grading more than you might expect. You're a programmer, so maybe you are familiar with the "save/compile/run" loop. The longer that is, the worse off you are, quadratically.

- Post, although *way* more similar to still photography, is much more involved than 5d footage. I am a Lightroom power user, and I understand a lot about digital imagery, but I am still stymied with processing my MX footage. I read up on threads here to try to fix that.

- Epic/Scarlet are strangely shaped camera bodies. Finding the right rigging/rails/dinguses for a particular setup can be surprisingly elusive. This is a great forum for that, but be prepared for a whole new level of TLAs. I have spent a lot of time trying to bend my existing rails etc to work, only to finally give up and buy more crap.

- An Epic would dwarf the cost and/or the value of your other gear, which makes it an anxiety focus in the field. If you have a 5d + $3k of other gear, the 5d is only "50%" of your stuff. If you have an Epic Dragon with $3k of other gear, your Dragon is now pretty much the only thing you need to care about from a financial point of view. This imbalance is an emotionally perceptual one, but it really does matter, to me at least. I've lost track of nice gear because I am hyper focused on not losing my camera body.

- I don't have a Dragon, but I do have a 5diii. The 5diii does not shoot footage as nice as an Epic, but it also doesn't break as hard at its limits. I can easily go outside in California with a 5d at noon or midnight and get something. Shooting an Epic at full-sun noon in California requires ND filters, pretty much. Shooting at midnight requires lights, pretty much. Dragon might change this, but for now, 5diii has a wider usable range than the MX.

- Blackshading. Ugh.


With all of that said, the first footage I shot from my MX camera that *I actually personally shot* absolutely blew me away. I had never seen anything like that from any camera I had ever owned. Here are some nice surprises from going from a 5d to an MX Red camera:

- The footage is unbelievably great.

- The camera is very simple to operate (but you have to know the details).

- EF mount is awesome and Just Works(tm) for every lens I have thrown onto it. (I believe Nikon and Sigma users are more vocally disappointed in their options... I have no idea about that.)

- Red media is bullet proof, I've never dropped a frame or lost a shot.

- Redcine-X is very thoughtfully designed, and matches my expectations for what digital imaging is.

- Third party .r3d interpretation is spreading very fast.

- If you ever want an ice breaker with a 14 year old skateboarder, a Red camera is my first choice.


I would not dissuade you from going for an MX or Dragon by any means, but I would encourage you to rent a Scarlet and take a week off of work to feel out the new constraints you will be facing. Scrarlet MX is going to be very close to an Epic Dragon in terms of these constraints.

I have not done so, but I believe you can rent a Scarlet by mail fairly easily.

I wouldn't dump ~$60k into a camera until I knew about the basics, even if I had the best laid plans to recoup my costs. I don't think you can know the basics until you have lived them.

-n

 

[Art Chong]

Richmond is a interesting market with a lot of corporate and government gigs, what I'd try to do is first upscale your clients & gigs where they expect feature film camera's instead of vdslr's - a goal could be get 20% of your jobs would require epics (then renting for that 20%). Once you've upscaled your clients/gigs where they start expecting the higher end equipment, then it makes financial sense to get the epic. Having said that, I think if your committed to a dream, then you should follow it, or you will go insane.

I think you may be the first person to notice that I'm in Richmond, VA . Thank you for the practical advice.

 

[Detlev Eller]

...

- My budget is a little above $60,000 cash. I would not have a loan to pay back.

- I would like to make my money back in 24 months.
...

Hi Art,

... you may like to play with this .... it´s rough and dirty ...

http://mytimevalue.com/timevaluevolumecalculatornew

I use it a lot for these kind of questions ... ;-)


cheers,
Detlev

 

[Art Chong]

Hi Art,
I work quite a bit and on some decently budgeted projects, but after about 18months I've only just paid off my Scarlet. Living in LA there are just so many of these cams out there, making the rates quite low.

Wow, that surprised me a bit. I kinda thought it would've taken you shorter than 18 months to pay off your scarlet. I only say that because I'm a fan of your work and figured you would've done it a lot faster.

I feel like that's coming out kinda wrong, but really, I'm a fan. I've pointed other people to Hello as an example of a successful production/advertising company that I admire.

 

[Christopher Mills]

Art, I see lots of good advice above. I have owned several cameras, including a Red 1, and produced multiple shoots with rented and owner operator DPs with Epics.

I do like the camera, and am *starting* to consider if I want to own an Epic myself.

However, i see that I do not have a client base or project in place on which I can assign an Epic. Much as I enjoy shooting personal projects on my R1, I am super happy that I was able to pick up the BT deal on that, and had most of the support gear already on hand, including lenses, follow focus, mattebox, batteries, monitors, etc..
This keeps me close to a mkiii in gear costs to amortize...

Now, it strikes me that you may be in a position to evaluate which projects you can upsell to an Epic, and thus hollow Bjorn's method of justifying purchase price.

I have found that the Red changed my rental model a lot.. the first digital cameras I owned were a dvx100, and then a Sony f900.. both paid for themselves swiftly, and turned a profit for several years. This was because they were A)scarce in my market, B)Simple for me to use, and C)had removeable media I could hand to a client without fear of their misunderstanding how to use it.
I find that with the file based camera revolution, most cameras only win on category B. So, I have to solve part A by marketing myself (some months are better than others), and sometimes I can solve C by asking for data management to be part of the shoot.
When the client can not agree to a field data management plan, then I have to use simpler cameras with lower data rates, cheaper media, and lesser shooting qualities.
I have to do this because even with 4K tv on the horizon, and even with major network and film studio clients, Most short form units can not support anything above 2K data managment. These are splinter units, television documentary, dvd extra features content.. etc..

In many cases, they are even dropping back to AVCHD from ProRes or Avid files....
or xdcam ex.. or in a few cases.. P2 with AVC Intra.

So.. I love what I have seen with Dragon demo stills and clips.. but I don't personally have the base to justify that for myself..
and still think I am an Epic renter, not owner.

 

[Julian Banos]

Hi Art,

Here is an alternative idea to yours, but it may serve the same goal: purchase a set of prime lenses that are high on demand on your market, an Oconnor head or ronford, mattebox and follow focus from either arri or oconnor.
Find an alliance with independent owner(s) of Epic Dragon who are in need of Studio equipment. Trade with them camera days for your equipment. Your ROI might be a bit slower, but steadier and its a longer term commitment, but you will get enough shooting days to do all your passion projects. You might end up with enough money to purchase your own Dragon and you will already have all the knowledge. You may end up with a great little company by doing that.

Just opening more doors...

 

[Detlev Eller]

... there are so many things involved in making a sale ... or so few .... depending on how much you´ve got of the ingredients ...

i think, it really depends on each own's: vision, style, effort, inspiration, choice of clients / projects, 80/20 ...

... no one can answer the question of how long it will take you or the next to make 60 Grand in free cash flow.

The dragon is the most awe inspiring piece of technology, i have seen in many years ...


Be free, be insane. think for yourself. have fun!




LOL

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

Don't confuse the plan to develop a career with the plan to buy gear. You can develop a career being a 100% renter.

You do simple math: How much will the camera devalue over 6 months (how much will Red slash their price). How many days would I need to rent the camera over those 6 months and how many external rentals would I lose if I didn't own it. Then you look at best deal in your area for renting, and make a calculation. For many people, it's much better to rent cameras, and only own things that do not lose value as quickly (like favorite lights, lenses.)

It used to take 21 rental days to pay-off for gear fully - now you need to count 40 days (and a week is only charged as 3 days)

And that's not even counting the time/money/effort to promote those rentals.

 

[Paul Schneider]

Wow, that surprised me a bit. I kinda thought it would've taken you shorter than 18 months to pay off your scarlet. I only say that because I'm a fan of your work and figured you would've done it a lot faster.

I feel like that's coming out kinda wrong, but really, I'm a fan. I've pointed other people to Hello as an example of a successful production/advertising company that I admire.

Thanks Art. Much appreciated.

The reason the Scarlet has barely paid itself off is mainly because it's not always right for the job. I use it quite a bit as a b-cam and sometimes it sneaks in on smaller jobs as the primary, however the realities of lugging it around the country (or the world) for work often means it stays at home. To be honest if I had bought an Epic it would have gotten used a bit more. Likewise, if I forced the camera into the hands of many of my producers or DP's it might we more action, but every job is different and I don't feel right doing that.

All I was really saying is that you need to really have the plan for that camera already in place. Dragon looks to be an awesome unit, but the world isn't gonna come knocking on your door simply because it's at your house. Most producers and DP's I know really prefer renting from bigger houses because it's a "one stop shop" for everything they need...easy. You'll really need to overcome that stigma by making sure you and your equipment are an easier, better sell to them. To me, this process takes away from the core focus of my job directing, so I don't bother and subsequently don't rent as often. My cam is set up to be very production friendly, but it still doesn't mean I don't get eyerolls when I suggest using it.

Again, thanks for the kind words. Hello is a fantastic place and its nice to hear the work has an audience.

 

[L. Langer]

The thing about that is, as far as I can tell, we have literally no idea when Scarlet Dragons are going to happen. If Scarlets are supposed to be Epic chips that can't achieve Epic speeds, then it's anybody's guess when supply is going to build up enough for Scarlet Dragons to be available en masse. I'd rather not plan around a camera that has no definitive release date. (Yes, I understand that Epic Dragon's dates can fluctuate depending on sensor yields as well, but at least upgrades has started on those)

Well the reality of it is that you won't be able to get your hands on an Epic Dragon for a long time given the line ahead of you and it's a big investment for something that you really won't get back in money any time soon. You can blow your 60K on the Epic Dragon Pro Pack sometime next year and get the whole enchilada, but it's really not going to pay itself off in short order, especially when you also need A LOT of other stuff like a RED Rocket-X, high-end video workstation, software, etc. It's a big step up from what you're working with right now and the overall cost might be more along the lines of $80K or more, depending on what you end up buying. Dragonized Scarlets will likely ship shortly after Epic Dragon becomes "available" to buy at will.

 

[Sabyasachi Patra]

Why not make 6 10,000$ shorts. This will get you a chance to maybe even direct a feature on someone else's dime. Hire a DP with a dragon, and focus on directing. Owning a camera will mean you need to wait 24months under perfect circumstances just to start to save money towards a film...

This is an extremely good suggestion. There are lot of struggling script writers. You can always get a good script if you try to look around.

Due to lot of people buying epics, perhaps thinking it is a way to salvation, the rental rates offered by people are ridiculous. The packages are offered at less than 1% of the cost. There can't be a greater madness than this. Camera's depreciate. In this economy it is not a very wise decision to invest in depreciating assets unless you are a business who can write it off and unless you are making steady income from it.

 

[Nick Fury]

This is an extremely good suggestion. There are lot of struggling script writers. You can always get a good script if you try to look around.

Due to lot of people buying epics, perhaps thinking it is a way to salvation, the rental rates offered by people are ridiculous. The packages are offered at less than 1% of the cost. There can't be a greater madness than this. Camera's depreciate. In this economy it is not a very wise decision to invest in depreciating assets unless you are a business who can write it off and unless you are making steady income from it.

The rental rate, quoted above, would indicate a drop in the capital cost-new or used, but that hasn't occurred...yet. The ubiquity of quality cameras, irrespective of price point has been ruinous, for their rental values and it is NOT going to change, for the current offerings. Supply side rental issues...

Thank you very much

Fury