Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

The Whiners Really Are Crazy!

Terry VerHaar

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 5, 2009
Messages
7,013
Reaction score
2
Points
38
Location
Marin County, CA
I finally have a chance to take a few minutes to think through the possibilities for upgrading my Scarlet and I have to say I am pretty amazed at the great options I have before me. I ordered my Scarlet a few days after they were offered in 2011 (Nov. 7, to be exact) and received mine about this time last year. The price for the body, Canon mount and side SSD module was $9,750. If I recall correctly, at the time I ordered my Scarlet I would have had to pay more than $30K ($34K?) for an Epic, which I just couldn't justify - as much as I lusted for its capabilities.

And, despite the fact that I don't officially offer the camera for rent, I have probably collected $1000 or so in rentals to friends of friends over the course of the year.

I really wasn't planning to update my camera this year as it pretty much meets my needs and I love shooting with it. It has performed nearly flawlessly - even the REDmote has been terrific! :smiley: The only issue I ever had was that the internal clock would occasionally reset to zero after being disconnected from power. It wasn't a big deal but I didn't want it to lead to bigger problems so I contacted RED and they had me send it in. In the end, I had to send it in 3 different times before they permanently fixed the problem but it has now been working like a charm for several months. I have never had a single dropped frame or image glitch.

During the course of the last year, I, like every Epic/Scarlet owner, have also obviously enjoyed several updates to the firmware; each time making it feel like I had a new camera. I almost always grabbed on to the latest beta and never once had an issue. So, at a net cost for the body of less than $9K I have been shooting for a year, learning/enjoying/benefitting from the camera and it still makes terrific images.

Now, I am faced with the opportunity to take one of two upgrade paths, both are which astoundingly tempting. The more speculative one would be to go straight to Scarlet Dragon - terrific low light performance, new color science, and fabulous dynamic range while still offering some impressive over cranking at up to 5K. Not everything is yet known and tested with this set-up, but I trust RED will make it work fabulously.

Or, I could, for the same $9,500, trade up to a brand new Epic-X. Yes, same the Epic that I couldn't justify a year ago for $34K, I can now get for much less. In fact, with RED effectively giving me back $8K for my Scarlet (a little less than the $9K net I have in it), I can be in an Epic for a combined total of $18.5K. This is the camera of Jackson, Soderbergh, et al. Wow.

How to choose? The downside of the Scarlet Dragon is that the new electronics are put into my old body - with no additional warranty on the body and a 90 day sensor warranty - and, from there, cannot be upgraded to Epic Dragon. But there's that fabulous DNR and 2000 ISO sensor. Meanwhile, I can get a brand spanking new Epic, proven technology and continued firmware upgrades, shooting 5K (plenty of rez to finish at 4K) and frame rates up to 300 fps. PLUS, I have the option to upgrade to Dragon some time in the future if I so choose.

Boy, do I feel sorry for me. No one should have to face these kinds of agonizing decisions. :beer:

Of course, I could always order a BMCC for $4K. (NOT!!!!!)
 
To me the decision is easy if you want the ability to keep updating your camera...go Epic-X. The upgrade path is WIDE open. As of right now, going scarlet dragon locks you into the last upgrade you can make... This may change of course if there is a NEW sensor years down the road that a scarlet dragon MAY be able to upgrade to...but you will not be able to upgrade to an EPIC-DRAGON.
 
Mike - I am inclined to agree. Not in a huge hurry so I am going to noodle it for awhile.:thumbsup:
 
I said in another thread that Scarlet owners have got all the recent Red love - Terry's post clarifies that. Getting a a new Epic for $9.5K (so that plus his original Scarlet cost is under $20K). A steal. A bargain. A gift.

Epic X owners have, however, had their camera reduce in value over the last year - and can now go Dragon for $9.5K. I'm thinking of selling my Epic now and getting an Epic Dragon later in the year (ie getting a new camera). The Epic path hasn't been as advantageous as the Scarlet one :)

Terry, go Epic X - as Mike said. I'd presume you could then upgrade to Dragon Epic later (has anyone asked this - I may have missed it in other posts).
 
Yes you can go to Dragon Epic later from an Epic X...so long as RED hasn't pulled the deal (They have said the upgrade deal won't last forever...but there currently isn't a time frame that the upgrade needs to be completed in...)
 
I'm with terry, going to sit this one out and see how it unfolds. The epic upgrade path is a dream. But until we know what scarlet dragon is and how much it will be worth, this is a hard discussion to have. The new scarlet may very well trump epic mx, at least these first few specs are looking very good
 
I cant understand how anybody thinks the scarlet dragon wont trump the epic mx, it most definitely will besides HFR. The epic program is there for people who want a trusted camera and can upgrade eventually to epic dragon. But 5K footage from a scarlet dragon will be much better than an epic x, at least on paper.
 
I went all in on the Scarlet-D..! So excited!:thumbsup:
 
I have to be honest, I am somewhat swayed by the warranty situation. A full year for a brand new Epic - effectively starting over on "wear and tear." My Scarlet is pristine but has been used and then they have to tear all those guts out and shove all that new tech in there (language is for emphasis - LOL). And I only get 90 days - on just the sensor. Hmmmm...

I see think I see going up to Epic Dragon in two steps. I think... maybe... perhaps...
 
While that is a valid point, doesn't equipment insurance forgo the warranty issue and have additional coverage for other issues? I bought my Scarlet used and don't even have a warranty at all so I figured I couldn't lose in either upgrade...

I have to be honest, I am somewhat swayed by the warranty situation. A full year for a brand new Epic - effectively starting over on "wear and tear." My Scarlet is pristine but has been used and then they have to tear all those guts out and shove all that new tech in there (language is for emphasis - LOL). And I only get 90 days - on just the sensor. Hmmmm...

I see think I see going up to Epic Dragon in two steps. I think... maybe... perhaps...
 
To me the decision is easy if you want the ability to keep updating your camera...go Epic-X. The upgrade path is WIDE open. As of right now, going scarlet dragon locks you into the last upgrade you can make... This may change of course if there is a NEW sensor years down the road that a scarlet dragon MAY be able to upgrade to...but you will not be able to upgrade to an EPIC-DRAGON.

Exactly my thinking. Besides, the Epic was good enough for major motion pictures last week and that still hasn't changed. Why screw yourself by getting the Scarlet Dragon and making it harder to possibly upgrade. I think the biggest question though is if people will want to rent out an Epic or Scarlet Dragon more. Only time will tell.
 
I would go Epic-X- for the same price getting the real deal and option to go full bore Epic Dragon with the HFR later. For the same $$$ Scarlet -D will not be a 6K camera, even the 5k FR will be lower than the Epic.
Incredible deal.....
 
Brian - my Scarlet is insured but I can't honestly say I know it will be covered by some manufacturing issue. And, my Scarlet warranty is just about up now so I am in the same boat as you are.

OTOH, if your Scarlet is in good shape, when RED gets it back to upgrade it, I imagine everything will get all tightened up and it will come out as good as new and ready for action.

You can make the argument either way. That's why I am still noodling. :-)
 
Yea I kind of impulsively jumped in with the rationale that "this is how the old school red one m buyers did it, so works for me"...part of me wishes I had thought more. But truthfully the Epic is wonderful and all, but I figured I need the new colors simply on the off hand chance this becomes an alexa/c500/f55 killer in the rental market... a guy can dream, right lol?
 
Brian - either way, I don't see how you can lose! Good times for RED owners.
 
I cant understand how anybody thinks the scarlet dragon wont trump the epic mx, it most definitely will besides HFR. The epic program is there for people who want a trusted camera and can upgrade eventually to epic dragon. But 5K footage from a scarlet dragon will be much better than an epic x, at least on paper.
I thought RED stated that there would be no sanctioned upgrade path from Scarlet Dragon to Epic Dragon.

Personally, the lack of any 6K stills capability for the Scarlet Dragon dampens my enthusiasm considerably for that option.
 
I'm wondering what you guys are doing with all these Ks :)
I understand when I read guys like David Fincher prefering the red one to the epic, because it's more noisy and organic, less clinical, and putting his images in post in a window of 3500 pixels large.
I can't believe that next year people will complain about 6k ;)
 
i got a BT scarlet, so the upgrade for me almost gives me more for my brain then i paid for it....
i am going the epic X route for now....i will probably get the epic much sooner then i would get a dragon scarlet....i am always an early adopter but so far we haven't seen a single clip form this new sensor...i don't have any doubts that RED will figure it out but it will be months off....when the first issues are resolved and there is no more waitng list for the dragon, i can upgrade again....
honestly the biggest reason to go for the epic is that it is so true what everyone says: the scarlet is a gateway drug....since i depend on pulling stills as much as motion, the scarlet always leaves me wanting more...resolution/framerate/better compression.....i simply don't want to lock myself into the same situation again with the dragon scarlet....which will be an amazing camera for most people, no doubt....but i can live with the epicX "limitations" knowing that i will be able to get the absolute dream camera when i can come up with another 9500.....
a week ago i was thinking about how to come up with the 13-14000 to upgrade to epicX.....so in my mind i just saved 4-5000.....
in a way RED helped me by breaking up the 30K into 3 chunks over 18 month, while providing me cameras all along the way....what's not to like?
 
I don't know? Personally I think people will prefer Scarlet Dragon over Epic MX. The dynamic range is very alluring and a clean shot at 2000 iso is going to be great in lowlight. This might make it a good documentary camera also.
 
Back
Top