Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

The Update Thread

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joshua Keffer said:
That's a good point. 12:1 seems pretty clean in that case. But since we know the Epic-W will shoot less than 40fps at 8k, there may be some heavy crop factor going on to get to 60fps.

It may be that the S-W is the better camera for my needs. I'm just thinking out loud - wondering if I can get the low-light capability of Helium and still shoot some decent slow-mo frame rates (60) without a massive crop. That's probably asking too much at the Epic-W price point, which is understandable. If RED gives too much here it will start encroaching on the Weapon-Helium's space. We'll know for sure when the specs are released.

The good news is that either way I'm getting a great deal on an amazing camera! It's just a question of which one!
Click to expand...

Fret not my friend. Remember that in all DSMC2 bodies you have the ability to shoot half frame rates so not necessarily a jump from 8K to 7K but in between to 7.5K. etc. The limiting factor on fps in the past has been vertical scanning so... my guess is that 8K WS could still likely yield something interesting. As would 7.5K WS, as would 7K WS... :)
 
At this exact time one year ago on this exact day I was in the process of ordering a RED Raven. The camera system I knew I was going to order since Jarred first hinted at it. It was a huge step for me at the time and an important one. Shortly after I switched to Scarlet-W which has been absolutely amazing!! Thank you so much RED for this awesome journey and for supporting filmmakers so mich! It's a wild ride and I love it!
 
Including buying used kit and then buying an upgrade package, what are the $$ options for those who don't own RED cameras to get into 8k at max frame rate or 25fps?

Mike Brennan
 
So I'm curious as to the difference that Helium has to Dragon other than the obvious smaller photosites to pack in more K in the real estate of sensor size.
It shows it has the same DR as Dragon. What are we getting better than the Dragon since this is the the 4th gen sensor coming from RED (Mysterium, Mysterium-X, Dragon, now Helium).

And a follow up question.

With the pic you showed Jarred about not fucking around (fucking awesome!!!), is one of the benefits of Helium actually on "that side of the counter?" Is it easier, faster, more accessible to make?

This is all incredible with what you guys are doing in this point in the life of RED. You guys will definitely be looking back at 2015/2016 as a pretty dynamic year with all the changes and evolution with your products.

I'm just trying to understand how things got behind and overwhelmed, but in the meantime you guys were able to come out with a whole new sensor and platform in the midst of that. How did Helium come to be in the middle of this rather than after you guys caught up?

I'm TOTALLY PULLING THIS OUT OF MY ASS ASSUMPTION, but is it that? Is it that not only is Helium a better sensor, you guys found a way to actually make this sensor "easier" than the Dragon sensor?
 
I have a feeling that to get the same frame rate on Scarlet-W as with Epic-W, you will have a larger crop factor? Just from looking at Helium specs, and to have 240 fps you have to go to 2k, if 8k is similar to 6k dragon, 2k must be very cropped? Any info regarding this?
 
Brandon Kelly said:
I have a feeling that to get the same frame rate on Scarlet-W as with Epic-W, you will have a larger crop factor? Just from looking at Helium specs, and to have 240 fps you have to go to 2k, if 8k is similar to 6k dragon, 2k must be very cropped? Any info regarding this?
Click to expand...

I second this question
 
Jarred Land said:
This time... We aren't fucking around.

1474832267.jpg


All Epic-Ws.
Click to expand...

Best thing in life is waking up with a damn fine cup of coffee and read this forum. Jarred you guys are so amazing and generous to us. thanks for the sneak peek.

"and now do not be nervous Sergio, do not get hysterical ... uuuuaa its blaaack and sooo fu... beautiful!! can't wait to get more specs and one of this beauties"

thanks for the pic Jarred always appreciated to get a look inside RED! My greatest wish is to go visit you and the team in L.A. to thank you personally for changing my life! Maybe one day it will be possible...
 
Mike P. said:
Which also implies an inevitable Raven-H and Scarlet-H... the thick plottens...
Click to expand...

I seriously doubt that. Helium is 8K at S35. Raven / Scarlet are always lower res then Epic / Weapon - they would certainly not be 8K. And this in Helium sensor would mean less the S35 format - not likely for RED.
If they indeed go to something like M43 and/or S16 - it would be entirely new camera - again I doubt it (as much as I know there would be millions who would love that - me including)...

:sifone: Peter
 
Brandon Kelly said:
if 8k is similar to 6k dragon, 2k must be very cropped? Any info regarding this?
Click to expand...
Maybe you can get someone with a storm trooper Helium to capture some sample images for you. You can use the photosize and a calculator to figure out the actual size. Phil's webtools would probably answer that too. Can't say enough nice things about the contribution Phil has made to Reduser. He is just as nice and generous in person too.
Joshua Keffer said:
If RED gives too much here it will start encroaching on the Weapon-Helium's space. We'll know for sure when the specs are released.
Click to expand...

One thing about Red is that they tend not to artificially limit based on firmware / software just to protect the higher priced version.. They do their best to give you everything the HW can do.

 
Thanks Stacey. I checked out Phil's tools.

[TABLE="class: dataContainer, width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TH="width: 50%"][TABLE="class: dataGrid, width: 428"]
[TR]
[TH="bgcolor: #354E38"]Shooting Format = RED Dragon 4K FF[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR="class: alt"]
[TH]Format Size = 20.48x10.80mm (23.15mm image circle)[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Format Resolution = 4096x2160 (8.85 megapixels)[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Format Aspect Ratio = 1.90:1[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH="bgcolor: #541414"]Relative Format = RED Helium 4K FF[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR="class: alt"]
[TH]Format Size = 14.95x7.88mm (16.90mm image circle)[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Format Resolution = 4096x2160 (8.85 megapixels)[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Format Aspect Ratio = 1.90:1[/TH]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TH]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
http://phfx.com/tools/formatCompare...D|Helium&formatTwo_format=3K+FF&focalLengths=

Correct me if I'm wrong, but helium currently has the same specs for FPS as Scarlet W at 5k and below? Meaning the crop factor to shoot 120 fps at 4k will be a fair bit more on Epic-W? And assuming the FPS are minimized on Epic-W, this means to go 120fps, you would have to go, lets say 3k. Hmmmm interesting stuff for sure. From what I can see this camera will be targeted for high resolution regular speed shooting. It will have the ability to shoot varispeed at the same frame rates and resolution as current cameras but will have a larger crop factor. Just my observations working in the action sports industry. Could be totally wrong, but everything is in the air, so.
 
Basically my guess is that EPIC W and W Helium would be in terms of adjustment frame rates and ratio as to SCARLET D and EPIC D back then... You get the same Sensor, less specs... No brainer to guess that for a less expensive camera...

I think EPIC W is awesome, but for 5K more I definitely would skip the Tuna during my water meals and go straight to WEAPON HELIUM.... You think about this investment for a little and wonder "U can keep this camera for 5 years minimum and still be rocking the field of filmmakers and clients will see you on TOP f the game in terms of equipment" Without trying to upgrade again... RED went ahead of the game too soon jumping to 8K, and with Upgrade discount. I mean, Can we be any more happy? NOPE!

This is insane, Jarred is insane.... and We should all be insanely happy, period!

Fucking love this company! Like I said before... Jarred and Brent are fucking outta this planet! :)
 
Would love to see RED follow tradition and engrave the sensor family name onto the SSD Module. RED HELIUM

Jarred Land said:
Depends who you are ( camera wise ) If you are a DSMC2 customer ( Scarlet-W, Weapon MG, Weapon Carbon ) and you are doing a Helium upgrade its going to be a much faster process because of the mechanicals.

That said, There always will be periods of insanity that things stack up.

But this launch will be very different than our past launches.

This time... We aren't fucking around.

1474832267.jpg


All Epic-Ws.
Click to expand...
 
What is likely to happen...:

Dragon tiers:
T1: Weapon VV 8K - 60 fps @ 8K in FF35
T2: Weapon CF 6K - 75 fps @ 6K
T3: Scarlet W 5K - 50 fps @ 5K
T4: Raven 4.5K - 120 fps @ 4.5K (really a specialty gimbal cam)

Helium tiers:
T1: Weapon H 8K - 60 fps @ 8K in S35
T2: Epic W - 30 fps @ 8K (to cover "normal" speeds for PAL/NTSC/CINE)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Make the Epic any faster and there is not enough separation from the more expensive Weapon H 8K. Make it any slower and it makes no sense as 8K camera, besides of timelapses and stills - just like the 5K 15 fps of the good old Scarlet MX...

What I do agree on is the confusing "W" moniker for the Epic (and Scarlet while we are at it), given that Weapon is a model name - not a body shape - which is DSMC2.
Then there is already the confusing "W" and "VV" (Weapon vs VistaVision). "W" should really be a name for the DSMC2 Dragon cameras. Period.
The Epic should really be named as "Epic H" and the VistaVision camera should also be renamed.
Then we would have the following lineup:

W (Dragon DSMC2) tiers:
T1: VistaVision W 8K - 8K @ 60 fps in FF35 (this should really be Weapon W)
T2: Weapon W 6K - 6K @ 75 fps (this should really be Epic W)
T3: Scarlet W 5K - 5K @ 50 fps

Specialty entry cam with fixed Canon mount
S1: Raven 4.5K - 120 fps @ 4.5K (really a specialty gimbal cam with fixed Canon mount)

H (Helium DSMC2) tiers:
T1: Weapon H - 8K @ 60 fps in S35
T2: Epic H - 8K @ 30 fps in S35

This makes even more sense as the inevitable DSMC3 comes in 2020 - which will have Helium options according to RED's "Body -> Sensor -> Body -> Sensor" update cycle...
I know it is too late for this, given how many of the Epic-W's have been engraved already - altho the "Epic-W" SSD modules could be sent for swapping to current Weapon MG owners... ;o)
I just agree that the line up is getting really confusing for anyone but us - experienced RED users...

:sifone: Peter


Edit: The "dream" Helium lineup should/could end up being:

H (Helium DSMC2) tiers:
T1: Weapon H - 8K @ 120 fps in S35 (given that NHK needs 8K @ 120 fps for the new SHV standard)
T2: Epic H - 8K @ 60 fps in S35
T3: Scarlet H - 8K @ 30 fps in S35

But that will mess up everything in terms of pricing / upgrades and logistic at RED HQ... :reddevil:
 
To add to my above post - this logic could eventually lead toward 2nd-gen "speciality" Raven camera:

Raven H - 6K @ 120 fps in M43 and a much smaller new compact body (with fixed M43 mount). That with RED CODE RAW will really shakeup the gimbal world of action, aerials, crash-cams, etc...

:reddevil: Peter
 
sam karr said:
Maybe it will be like the Scarlet-MX. Helium 8k @12fps for still photography. 7k (s35 size) will be the maximum resolution for motion.
Click to expand...

If EPIC W won't should at 8K for film meaning 24-30 fps, I'm sure for $5K more, people would rather go straight up for Helium Weapon. I doubt Epic W will only shoot at 8K for stills... the money gap would be too cheap vs the specs gap for shooters...

My 2 cents prediction.
 
jordan levy said:
i wonder what camera is the closest to s35mm at 4KHD?
I tried to look at phils chart on full resolutions but doing the math started to hurt.
could it actually be the Raven or scarlet-w?
Click to expand...

The pixel density of the sensor is always the same between the different Dragon sensor cameras. As well as between a potential smaller sensor sized Helium and regular Helium sensors.
These questions always pop up but the answer is simple; there's no Dragon camera that has a different sensor area from another Dragon camera on the same chosen resolution.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top