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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

The thing I hate most about my Scarlet is.... The audio jacks.

M

Matt Johnston

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Not because of sound quality - Scarlet audio sounds just fine to my ears.

But I hate the jacks. I have used on camera mics like the Rode Videomic with the radioshack adapter. I've used the HOSA cables with all sorts of setups and even the A Box. But no matter what - I sometimes bump the jack with my hand while focusing, or the cable gets hit, or something, and the movement of the plug in the jack causes intermittent connection crap that ruins the audio. I have to be so careful to not touch the mic jack plugs and it is always a fear.

I know second system is ideal, and sometimes I do. But the majority of my content is stuff like this (Which are both 90% RED):



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7aPbrz-Qhk

and this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfwXB-SVnZw

and my deadlines are 24 hours almost always. Sometimes same day. I have no problems on the RAW workflow or file size or any of that crap. I regularly turn stuff around in a few hours from RED. But the audio jacks are constantly screwing me.

No options I see? Pro IO doubles my camera size, no dice. I have to put it in a backpack. I've tried gaff taping the plugs and that works best, as they are less likely to move, but still poses a risk. Any other ideas?
 
What about using just the Mic 1 channel (on the side opposite of your free shooting hand)? Pretty bad compromise, but probably much less likely to hit randomly. Also, I seem to recall a riser-plate/XLR adapter that fed the cables from underneath the camera with very little loose cabling... Might be worth looking into.But yes, it's a major pain in the butt when you need to make sacrifices in base functionality like this and people generally respond with, "it's digital cinema, so you're supposed to use a dual system, etc etc". I hate that. Conversely, if you knew you were only going to be doing Docu/eng style shooting, you may have had an easier time with a different camera (fs700?), but I'm guessing you do cinema as well, huh?

EDIT: yep, the fortis bottom plate is the plate I was referring to.

EDIT2: iPhone is not letting me add line breaks, what's up with that?
 
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Look at this: http://www.innocinema.com/product_info.php?cPath=43_44&products_id=159

Your 1/8" jacks are held in place and covered, the cable runs through the baseplate and out to 2 full size xlr's on the rear. AND, you get front 15mm rod mounts also. This company makes the BEST accessories out of everybody in my opinion. Their power solutions are badass.
 
I've had the same problem on occasion with my jacks. They simply aren't suitable for professional use. Even the A-box is still vulnerable; it's still the same plugs and wires, still vulnerable to inadvertent movement when your hands are near the front of the camera.

Two solutions I can see:

1. physically clamp the plugs to some kind of bridge plate assembly, on rails right up against the front of the camera, so they *can't* move.

2. (gently, carefully, warranty-voidingly) remove the front of the camera and *replace* the audio sockets with locking items. It should be do-able; they're not hard-soldered to PCBs, they're just bolted into the metal and connected to the rest of the brain via short wiring harnesses and mini molex-type connectors:

red-x-internals-2-640x516.jpg


(don't seriously suggest you try this at home, but some enterprising engineer might start offering the mod!)

Personally I feel this was a bad design decision left over from the '3K for $3K' days; even mini-XLR would have been better than this, and not all that much bigger.

Mike
 
What about a 9-pin D-Sub style panel socket and breakout XLR cable.

What about a 9-pin D-Sub style panel socket and breakout XLR cable.

My following comment may be fit to get me expurgated, exterminated, emasculated or any other manner of debilitating removal from this forum for envoking that most sinful of subjects to raise here, the SI2K camera system, in particular P+S Technik's docking recorder unit.

Whilst P+S retained a small stereo-phono outlet for headphones on back of the camera body, for main line-level audio in-out, they went for a 15-pin D-sub panel connector, mechanically mounted to a robust metal rear panel. My vague recall is that the elbowed conductors on the rearside of the D-Sub socket, pin directly into a PCB which is half of motherboard pair in a slideout module which docks to a backpane. The D-sub carries two channel audio in and two channel audio out. A short breakout cable is supplied which has a D-Sub plug on one end and four XLR inline sockets, two male, two female on branches. The normal D-Sub connector plug and socket pair has two small thumbscrews to hold the plug fast to the rear of the camera. In use we have found it fairly bulletproof.

I wonder if there is enough workspace and solid casework structure available in the Scarlett/Epic to to permit opening the hole for the phono socket out to accommodate a smaller 9-pin D-Sub panel socket. Alternatively, one could outstand the D-Sub socket from the panel on a small milled solid metal block fixed to the panel to make workspace available. A similar breakout cable arrangement using a 9 pin D-Sub plug and two XLR in-line sockets on branches might then be an option. The pins on the D-Sub could be soldered to a small internal cable and PCB plug as is aleady used.

This would invite immediate suspension of any warranty unless the mod was executed by RED engineers. The Scarlett/Epic casework may not be robust enought to take the sort of mechanical loads a D-Sub socket can withstand. A phono plug will simply snap or the wires pull out before case damage can occur.

We can run a snake cable from a Sound Devices MixPre to the breakout cable on the camera-recorder. The P+S Technik recorder unit does not supply phantom power. We can draw 12vDC from it via a Lemo socket if we want to supply the MixPre but for now we use the small torch batteries.

I was really quite unbelieving at first to learn that mini-phonos are used for audio-in on the Scarlett. They are a wellknown dog of a plug at best and certainly not for agile work.

As a temporary fix, you might achieve a little more conductive reliability by using a very small smear of aluminium or copper based anti-seize grease on the shank of the phono plug. Just a mere trace only because with drag of the grease by plugging and unplugging, it will sooner or later move far enough along the pin to provide a conductive path across the thin insulation between tip and shank and maybe short something out.
 
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Jake Wilganowski said:
Look at this: http://www.innocinema.com/product_info.php?cPath=43_44&products_id=159

Your 1/8" jacks are held in place and covered, the cable runs through the baseplate and out to 2 full size xlr's on the rear. AND, you get front 15mm rod mounts also. This company makes the BEST accessories out of everybody in my opinion. Their power solutions are badass.
Click to expand...

This thing...

epic_accessories_005.jpg



Hmmm that's half-way there; it seems to be pretty much a shield/clamp which covers the audio plugs so they're held in tight and can't get pulled out or disturbed.

But it only works with the rest of their rig. I was thinking of something very similar, but sitting on top of a standard 19mm bridge plate so you could use it with any setup.

Mike
 
Mike 'Fireman' Ross said:
Personally I feel this was a bad design decision left over from the '3K for $3K' days; even mini-XLR would have been better than this, and not all that much bigger.
Click to expand...

+1

It's hard for me to believe minijack audio survived the focus group stage of development. Have you ever encountered anyone not employed by RED who thinks it was a good idea? I haven't. And I shudder to think what's going to happen when (or if) Epics and Scarlets start sending phantom power over those Mickey Mouse connectors.

I don't buy the "this is a professional camera, therefore you should always record double-system" argument. If the audio stage is only meant to provide a scratch track, why not simply build in a cellphone-sized on-board microphone instead?

RED not leaving themselves enough real estate to incorporate better connectors strikes me as a bit silly when the cameras need a riser plate anyway to interface with most aks. I understand the front-facing minis were intended mostly as a stop-gap alternative to the rear I/O module(s), but even after the die is cast (pun intended), why non-locking connectors? Isn't that HDMI's most-hated "feature"? It beggars belief that screw-down minijacks are prohibitively expensive for cameras in their price ranges. :confused5:
 
Any 1/8 jack is a menace in my view. There isn't enough surface area or pin preasure between the connecting parts. The other concern is phantom power, its at 48V which is a huge voltage difference between mic level. If phantom volts are on, any dirt of dust will cause crackles if the connector moves so the connector needs to be perfectly clean to offer any chance. If it were balanced line level you might stand a chance, so far as I know you have to pad down to mic level to get audio in to the camera.

Given there is no other option right now We use Neutrik Gold connectors which are the best we can find, They black in colour so don't reflect in vision and a right angled.

I was hoping the new module providing a second EFV or LECL output on it might have XLR's or some other reliable connector on it be great if this option could be included.
 
the innocinema solution fixes all these problems and gives you 15 inch lws and full size sturdy xlrs, i always have it on and never had a problem, this is THE solution for this problem
 
Max M. said:
the innocinema solution fixes all these problems and gives you 15 inch lws and full size sturdy xlrs, i always have it on and never had a problem, this is THE solution for this problem
Click to expand...

YES people! Look at all of their accessories, they seriously rule. Their audio solution is perfect.
 
No Question Innocinema products rule its great kit.

If the 3.5mm jack is in circuit then its in circuit, you still have the pin contact issues and it operates at mic level. It improved but it is not a cure.
 
Erik Bien said:
+1

It's hard for me to believe minijack audio survived the focus group stage of development. Have you ever encountered anyone not employed by RED who thinks it was a good idea? I haven't. And I shudder to think what's going to happen when (or if) Epics and Scarlets start sending phantom power over those Mickey Mouse connectors.

I don't buy the "this is a professional camera, therefore you should always record double-system" argument. If the audio stage is only meant to provide a scratch track, why not simply build in a cellphone-sized on-board microphone instead?

RED not leaving themselves enough real estate to incorporate better connectors strikes me as a bit silly when the cameras need a riser plate anyway to interface with most aks. I understand the front-facing minis were intended mostly as a stop-gap alternative to the rear I/O module(s), but even after the die is cast (pun intended), why non-locking connectors? Isn't that HDMI's most-hated "feature"? It beggars belief that screw-down minijacks are prohibitively expensive for cameras in their price ranges. :confused5:
Click to expand...

Well-said, and those who point out that simply securing the mini jacks from accidental movement only solve half the problem are also correct; these things were never designed to carry phantom power.

The only final solution is to rip them out and replace them. Or perhaps some enterprising third-party will come up with a simple cheap rear module that just has 2x XLR. Pro I/O is $3,750 and a big lump; it will be something a lot of people will go for - but not the run & gun types who need to stay light but still need good reliable on-camera audio. They need a better, different solution.

What IS the story with rear modules anyway? The cameras have been out for quite some time, there are certainly thousands of Scarlets and EPICs on the streets - but *no-one* apart from RED has yet produced any rear modules? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Does anyone know of ANY third-party modules in the pipeline, announced or even rumored?

Mike
 
Mike 'Fireman' Ross said:
What IS the story with rear modules anyway? The cameras have been out for quite some time, there are certainly thousands of Scarlets and EPICs on the streets - but *no-one* apart from RED has yet produced any rear modules? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Does anyone know of ANY third-party modules in the pipeline, announced or even rumored?

Mike
Click to expand...

I think the Meisner module is a good indication of where Red's headspace is on the issue. 3ality isn't allowed to sell it themselves even though they manufacturer it.
 
The problem with the innocinema kit is that it's $1000 with all the necessary bits. The fortis is $380... Just need the caps/holder/rods on the front.This, as well as the fan noise, are stupid problems that can easily be alleviated.
 
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