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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

The SDI issues

Even for a small production company, missing a shoot because their Komodo is back at RED getting repaired, $1100 doesn't seem like much. Condisering a $6k body and upwards of $5k lenses, once again, $1100 isn't a very steep price to pay for reliability. he biggest drawback that I can see is that each converter needs a 5v supply.....that can get cumbersome.
 
If issues with ESD/fried boards is the only thing you care about, then $1,100 is expensive insurance. That said, being able to feed a clean 12G signal to a live switch/outboard recorder/video village/etc - even over longer distances - is of value in many production scenarios. Perhaps there is an opportunity for rental houses to kit out SDI<->Optical solutions (including reels of tactical fiber cable in various lengths) to support 12G signal transport for Komodo and other 12G infrastructure.

For an SDI on camera monitor this seems like overkill to me. I understand that busy crews and renters cannot be expected to follow multi step protocols faithfully. That said, IMHO, you can reduce that risk by rigging/pre-wiring your Komodo/monitor setup to a common power source (no separate monitor battery). I'd also add a sticker that has a simplified step by step reminder about proper order for battery changes.

Cheers - #19
 
Agree that this is a pretty extreme solution if all one needs is simple on camera rig monitoring. Too bulky with two converters and multiple power supply connections.
Now, I'm wondering about some other approaches for on camera monitoring. Blair, you seemed to indicate that the SDI issue is present only when separate power sources are being used. Is this the only scenario that causes burned out SDI boards? Also, since this problem is because of routing voltage transients thru the SDI board, can' one solve it by pre-connecting all component ground points together in a common ground? IOW, a few alligator clips connecting metal points on all components. Just thinking aloud, here. Please don't flame me for it.
 
Context

Context

Without testing, I cannot empirically state that powering the Komodo/SDI monitor/other AKS from the same source is a bulletproof solution. That said, using a common power source should eliminate one potential ESD path. My post (#203) was targeted at Komodo owners who rent out their kit and/or use them in situations where they can't babysit the camera from call to wrap.

FWIW, for dry rentals, I'd pre-build the kit and put it in an appropriate case. Battery plate, monitor, cabling, etc all attached properly. Client only deals with battery changes, support and lens/filter/rods/MB out front. You might even want to modify the battery plate contact points to improve the odds that ground is engaged first on swaps.

BTW, in the early days of RED, there were plenty of renters (at least in my market) who were used to camcorders and had no experience "building" up a rig. This led me down the "pre-built in a large case" path. I even had custom foam cut that allowed me to mount the venerable RED 18-50mm short zoom with ARRI MB20 Mk2, rods, etc already attached. While there are a thousand reasons to use a different lens or other variable, it did allow you to; pop on a battery, hit the power button, (drop in a filter if desired) and start shooting.

Cheers - #19
 
Sorry if this has been answered but I just want to make sure. So do I need to do all the steps over again if I turn the camera and monitor off for awhile (or a few hours)?
 
Thanavorakit K. said:
Sorry if this has been answered but I just want to make sure. So do I need to do all the steps over again if I turn the camera and monitor off for awhile (or a few hours)?
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Red says: "The camera's power state does not have an impact on SDI attachment sequence." so you can turn the camera on and off at will once everything is connected. But you must go through the steps when changing a battery (unless it is the second Canon BP battery on the back of the camera - these can be swapped out anytime). With regard to monitor power, you are meant to power the monitor BEFORE connecting the SDI cable. So if you are following the instructions to the letter, you should disconnect the SDI before powering the monitor on again. Not sure if this is critical, quite a few people on FB say once the camera is rigged and connected you can power things on/off at will.
 
Here is my naive question, sorry if it's been brought up already and I missed it:

Is there any kind of switching or voltage protection built into the battery terminals of monitors that differs from the circuitry that powers the monitor directly via DC in? Could using a dummy battery plate rather than DC in be any safer?
 
Haven Cousins said:
Here is my naive question, sorry if it's been brought up already and I missed it: Is there any kind of switching or voltage protection built into the battery terminals of monitors that differs from the circuitry that powers the monitor directly via DC in? Could using a dummy battery plate rather than DC in be any safer?
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Highly unlikely. Moreover, even if a theoretical dummy battery plate had electronics to eat ESD, it's not the only potential ESD path.

Cheers - #19
 
Well, speaking less about the capability of the plate, as most plates are quite simple in their construction, but more about whether monitors themselves tend to have different electronics behind their battery terminals than their dc inputs. And I (we, really, as a community) don't need to eliminate every ESD path, we just need to find one method that is safe. Maybe its unlikely that this is a solution, but for example, my smallHD monitor takes sony npf's. There is a third spring loaded pin on the back. Does that pin engage power after the + and - are fully engaged? Does anyone know what that pin does? I can't find diagrams for the flat metal contact that is on the back of NPF's that it engages with, and some NPF dummy plates have that flat metal contact point. I may be reaching here, I know, but just chasing down every avenue.
 
Haven Cousins said:
Well, speaking less about the capability of the plate, as most plates are quite simple in their construction, but more about whether monitors themselves tend to have different electronics behind their battery terminals than their dc inputs. And I (we, really, as a community) don't need to eliminate every ESD path, we just need to find one method that is safe. Maybe its unlikely that this is a solution, but for example, my smallHD monitor takes sony npf's. There is a third spring loaded pin on the back. Does that pin engage power after the + and - are fully engaged? Does anyone know what that pin does? I can't find diagrams for the flat metal contact that is on the back of NPF's that it engages with, and some NPF dummy plates have that flat metal contact point. I may be reaching here, I know, but just chasing down every avenue.
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Hi Haven. I like your thinking, but I'm not sure if there are any additional electronics between the battery plate and the monitor. I don't think it matters to connect both pins at the same time (or ground first) when connecting a battery that is only powering one device. In my understanding, connecting either the positive or ground first, will not be an issue in this scenario. The biggest issue, it seems, is connecting the positive first when powering an accessory from a battery that is already connected to the camera and forming a ground loop. ESD might also be an issue, but I don't know much about it.
 
Robert Hofmeyr said:
Hi Haven. I like your thinking, but I'm not sure if there are any additional electronics between the battery plate and the monitor. I don't think it matters to connect both pins at the same time (or ground first) when connecting a battery that is only powering one device. In my understanding, connecting either the positive or ground first, will not be an issue in this scenario. The biggest issue, it seems, is connecting the positive first when powering an accessory from a battery that is already connected to the camera and forming a ground loop. ESD might also be an issue, but I don't know much about it.
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The simplest solution is to always use a 3-wire connection between powered accessories and the camera. This is already available by using a Lemo connector on both ends of the power cable. A properly built Lemo provides a shielded ground across accessories and components. This assumes the component at each end has a chassis ground to the outer shell of the Lemo. Wouldn't it be appropriate if that unknown pin you refer to is actually a groundwire connection? Even if that is true, it's useless unless that ground is carried thru to the chassis of each component.
 
Interesting. For power solutions for the Komodo, only the Tilta one comes to mind as having lemo outputs on the unit. (porbably there are others, I just cant think of them) Most others just have P/D tap, which is a two pin connection. So, with that unit, and whatever monitor/accessory you're using, a simple voltmeter could test continuity to the chassis. If it was grounded to the chassis, and you avoided the P/Dtap outs like the plague... is this theoretically 100% safe?
 
I'm new to this SDI issue/procedures.

Let's say I follow all the procedures to fire up my camera. Now I want to turn everything off to take a break. Do I really have to disconnect everything every time the camera powers down?

Assuming not, now assume I'm back at set. Since all of the connections are secure, can I just turn on my monitor and then turn on the camera? Or it always a disconnect/reconnect sort of thing?

Thanks.

Stephen
 
I called Red yesterday and was told that as long as you followed the procedure to connect power properly (in my case BP batteries and battery on monitor) then the camera can be powered off and back on at will without needing to disconnect the SDI cable. Only when changing the batteries should I power down then disconnect the SDI from the monitor. I was also told to connect the power to camera and monitor first and while keeping everything off, then connect the SDI and power on.
 
JM Mullins said:
I called Red yesterday and was told that as long as you followed the procedure to connect power properly (in my case BP batteries and battery on monitor) then the camera can be powered off and back on at will without needing to disconnect the SDI cable. Only when changing the batteries should I power down then disconnect the SDI from the monitor. I was also told to connect the power to camera and monitor first and while keeping everything off, then connect the SDI and power on.
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This still leaves the whole idea of hot-swapping BP batteries while the camera is running irrelevant as a feature since you cannot do that with an SDI monitor attached. Most sets have the camera keep running throughout the day, it's supposed to be able to hot-swap and just keep going. So what would Red say about the hot-swapping feature of Komodo when they at the same time are saying that you need to turn your camera off when changing batteries?

Can we just get a freakin monitor that can work without the SDI port based on the top connection instead and leave the SDI port to video village stuff. There's actually no way to use the camera with hot swapping and a proper monitor *facepalm*
 
JM Mullins said:
I was also told to connect the power to camera and monitor first and while keeping everything off, then connect the SDI and power on.
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This can’t be right, can it?
I thought I was supposed to power on the camera and monitor first, and then connect the SDI. (and then hot swapping BP was ok)
 
Christoffer Glans said:
Can we just get a freakin monitor that can work without the SDI port based on the top connection instead and leave the SDI port to video village stuff. There's actually no way to use the camera with hot swapping and a proper monitor *facepalm*
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This x1000. I want to be respectful here. I love this company and have been a Red owner since the very beginning, but... I cannot believe that they are not going to address this one main glaring issue. I just hope they do so soon! I used the camera last week for the first time on a professional gig and it performed great. Yet I'd love (and would pay a premium for) a Red made monitor that connected using the pogo pins. Using the SDI is honestly freaking me out. I'm 99% sure that one time I'm going to screw up the sequence, as my thoughts are on a million other things when shooting.
 
Christoffer Glans said:
This still leaves the whole idea of hot-swapping BP batteries while the camera is running irrelevant as a feature since you cannot do that with an SDI monitor attached.
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Red told me you can hot swap BPs without following the procedure. To be honest, I still don't see how changing the battery on a monitor can blow the SDI, since a ground loop can't be formed this way, unless the SDI is super sensitive and the slight difference between the ground voltages of the camera and monitor batteries can break it.
 
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