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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

The Schedule...

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I went over and read your post dude... I can see where you would come up with your opinion. It's logical, and Jarred slamming the hammer down so fast does not help things.. But remember he's a company man, and this is a company board.

ALL Companies control the flow of information to a certain extend. This company will be no different.


I am at least glad your post was not deleted! As for me, I have no opinion on the matter except to say I can understand how you came to the conclusion you did. I am not ready to go with your stance on this as yet though. I am going to give everyone the benefit of the doubt since taking your point of view does not fill me with warm fuzzies. I prefer to wait until RED's next progress report in a couple of weeks and belive that the different notes are the product of evolution, not dishonestly.

The simple fact, is, I know very little about what's going on. So I can only look at this from a results standpoint.. I make my decisions based on what has happened rather than what I guess will happen. It's really the only way we can go given that we are not really "in the loop"..

So... That said.. Time to sit here and do what we all seem to do so well....

Wait...

:)

Jay
 
Wise words, daddy boy... ;-)

:)
 
I can guess that the thread was moved because this forum (as opposed to off topic) appears on the red.com homepage.

Whilst J may have been a little hasty, just think that you would never even have had the chance to communicate with any other manufacturer in this way. I think the main thing is that we're just not used to seeing the development of a product in this much detail - you just wouldn't get the camera from some companies, no explanation why or real schedule or anything.

In summary, I don't think there's any dishonesty, just more problems than foreseen.
 
This was "slammed shut" because a story was being built from my posts that isn't correct. And, quite frankly, I don't really want to explain every detail that is going on behind the scenes. We give honest, timely snapshots. If someone wants to create a conspiracy because we don't give you every blow by blow... then take it somewhere else.

Jim
 
Agree with you on this jim,
As I've mentioned on before I've done a number of years of pcb design, on low noise systems and realise it's as much a black art as a science when you're talking about board layout and chip selection inorder to have the cleanest signals possible. now if people don't understand things like common mode rejection ratios on differential amps and how ripple on a voltage line can introduce noise in the least significant bits of a data bus or that's when I'm relying on the manufacturers spec as true but in reality aren't and the chip/batch needs to get swapped out, or that boards manufacturers give 'suggested, board layouts for their chips but hey these don't always work and tracks in certain conditions radiate more noise and I need to redraw that board or react to hundreds of other things that may go wrong, well i'm not about to give you a 2 hour physics lesson on it. And if I say a board is broke and needs to get redrawn, or a chip is not up to spec and need replacing or have filters added to it and I say it needs fixing or what ever terminolgy I chose - broke, noisy, fix, respin, screwed, during my R & D or manufacture phase, please leave the conspiracy theory stuff to one side for a bit and just accept it!

Cheers,
 
Jim. Realize that you have thousands of supporters and just a few dissenters. There was an episode of the Simpsons where Mel Gibson showed his remake of Mr. Smith Goes to Washington and every single person at the test screening loved it except for one person, Homer. What does Mel do? He ignores all of the compliments and concentrates all his efforts on Homer's ideas and ruins an already great movie. Don't worry about the assumptions and opinions of a few others. There are plenty of us who support your hard work and dedication. You are the founder of this company and from the get go, your intentions have been to create a revolutionary digital cinema camera that can create images that rival 35mm film at an incredible price. You have been an example of how the founders of all companies should behave. You have offered a great product at a great price and kept an open line of communication with your clients and prospective clients. We know that you and the RED teams intentions are not just meant for what is best for the company, but what is best for the consumer as well and we will stand by you my friend.
 
man, this brings back memories. i had a great forum promoting a project and was chased off it by a few people's poorly chosen words. that still stings. the financers and producers were to blame for a delay in shooting and the "fans" took it out solely on me. i got so pissed i took down my whole board. in hindsight it still bugs me. it really is a fine line we all tread when anybody can post and piss in our cheerios.
 
I really didn't want to waste my time on this... BUT

Dear Jim,

As many people know I am a big supporter or RED, one of many here on Reduser.net. I am behind the team 100%, and nothing will change that one bit. I am sure you will finish this massive project and deliver an eathquake to the industry soon.
Good so far...

However, I must say I was puzzled to say the least when reading your thread "Schedule". Actually I am surprised nobody picked up on that so far, at least to my knowledge (which is something good, showing what amazing support and leeway you get from us, the RED fans). But let me explain myself.
OK... ?

You said a short while ago that you decided to redesign a board completely, to give it a new spin in order to achieve more dynamic range and less noise. Everyone (including myself) was elated, even though that meant a delay for both the reservation holders and those with an order. Slowly, you admited to more problems - problems with suppliers and so on (totally understandable). All good so far. As you saw, no one had any problems with it.
and...

BUT - in the thread "Schedule" - you actually admitted that you suffered an unexpected failure at one of the boards, and it was in truth because of this fact that you had to order a complete new design for the board, to give it a new "spin". Unfortunately - and to be brutally honest - it is now pretty obvious that when the team suffered this surprising malfunction, RED decided to hide the truth and say to us that this board is being redone for more dynmic range. In the long run it proved to be the wrong choice, as you had to revert back to the truth in the end.

Here is where you go on my shit list.

1st off... Our "surprise failure" was a production board that had a bit more noise than we had expected. BUT, we could have finished the camera and started shipping with these production sensor boards... PJ's film was shot on these boards and no one complained. My idea of a "failure" and yours might be a bit different. If I had used the term slight disappointment, would that have avoiding this conspiracy theory? If something doesn't meet my expectation, I consider it a failure. In this case, "others" would kill for our failures.

Graeme had an idea to increase dynamic range so we took the opportunity to re-design the sensor board with the goal of both increasing dynamic range and beating Frankie's noise level...

I think I posted something like, "we delayed to improve dynamic range and reduce noise by re-designing our sensor board". Which was, and still is, true.

Your story, built on my words, paints quite a bit different story. And it kind of pisses me off, truth be known.

Now, this is again understandable. Every company would have done the same. Hell, I wold have done exactly the same had I been the leader of RED (yeah, I know I'm not :-)) BUT - given the superb track record of you being totally honest with us from the very beginning, not hiding anything good or bad - I must say I am a tiny bit disappointed with this incident going against your policy so far. I'm sure everyone here would have understood the setback from day one when it happened. And in fact I'm sure you, too, are a bit disappointed that for once you chose not to tell the truth. Of course, you were not obliged to do so; but being used to being told the truth constantly, one gets used to it :-)
Please understand that I don't know you, but I'm quite disappointed at your detective work. Just so you know.

Jim

THE MAIN THING, I hope the "more dynamic" range is still one of the reasons for the delay, and not just a ploy as - to be blunt again - it seems right now in retrospect.

I hope no one will get angry with me on this board, since I just tried to point out a thing that was not right, in my humble opinion. Healthy criticism is always a good thing. I remain one of the greatest fans along with everyone else here,

Mike
 
Let's changing subject...?! Though as one of the 1st reservations holders, I just can take in consideration so far it is -- this open mind (concerning us) we can get from the owner of the company, himself.

EDIT -- Yoda spoke. :)
 
So all it comes down to is a question of semantics. Someone read the word "Failure" to mean "died" when that wasn't the intended meaning at all. Perhaps in hindsight Jim might have expanded on what he meant or chosen a more descriptive term.
However rather than someone jumping into the conspiracy theories a simple question about what was meant by "failure" would have cleared up the issue.
Even if it was failure as in something went bang this wouldn't have been such a big issue, this happens all the time in PCB design, not enough track clearance, mounting holes didn't allow enough for tolerance in castings, a zillion reasons. When I read Jim's initial post that was all I assumed it was, even though that wasn't what it was, it's such a trivial and common issue I failed to see why the team needed to elaborate any further.

I wonder how many realise how much time it takes to writeup a detailed progress report, one that's almost like a legal document so it cannot be misunderstood in any way shape or form, somehow I think the time and resources that eats up could be better spent getting on with the job.
 
It is very common to wait to implement a hardware change until a new PCB is being designed if it involves something that can't be accomplished in software/firmware or glue logic. I don't see any conspiracy, just an opportunistic point in the manufacturing cycle.
 
What's the truth? For truth's sakes, this is truly a non-Einsteinian relativity...

What's the truth? For truth's sakes, this is truly a non-Einsteinian relativity...

Now speaking seriously, as well. Sometimes some typical american search for the truth puzzles my european and filmmaker sensibility...

There's no one unique truth but several of them. The truth is often based on half-truths or not even from the middle of...nowhere?

We need to know how avoid the naive attitude and check between the lines. Always in life -- the world is not (only) RED ONE ;-)

What Jim has known (is) to win on all these lines and preserve what is still the most important.

Mine (truth) is my confidence that Jim will deliver his "ONE" as soon as possible -- period.
 
Jim, I obviously do not know you personally, but I have so much respect for what you're doing for us filmmakers that I don't even want to get into the slightest argument with you. In fact I believe it's not too useful to get into arguments with anyone, truth be told (in that respect, maybe I shouldn't have spoken my mind when I posted in the first place) :-)

However, let me just say that I don't know where this whole "conspiracy theory" came from. If my post sounded like that, I certainly didn't intend it this way. Again, I just politely expressed my opinion, even if I was blunt. Maybe I still believe in it, maybe I don't - it doesn't matter. There are others who thought exactly like me (and you must admit it was very easy for people to reach this conclusion the way the announcements came, even if it would be a wrong one). But that's beside the point.

The point is, why waste time putting people on one's shit list for such small things? (I'll never meet you so your shit list or my shit list means nothing to both of us). But can't anyone express an (even wrong) opinion on Reduser? Especially since he clearly says he is extremely appreciative and supportive of the RED team, and he placed already an order for the camera?

In any case, I wish you all the best with this project, I am personally sure it will deliver even more than expected.

Michael

PS By the way, anyone checking my posts here will see that I am definitely NOT the trolling kind.
 
For the record Michael,

I disagreed with your post (As I said earlier) but I did not have a problem with what you said. I was able to see how you came to that conclusion, I just did not think it was the right one.

Please remember, this is NOT a typical forum, it's a company's communication site. Therefore, posts that put the company in a bad light on it's own site are not going to sit well.

I was not too wild about the nature of Jim's response, and when a gentleman in his position uses words like "shit list" I get pretty nervous. But it's no secret that Jim Jannard is a passionate fellow, and if you push his buttons he will respond. Not always the best idea, but who amoung us has not fallen into the emotional trap of defending something we care deeply for.

I repect you standing up for what you believe in, but I am not sure you are doing it in the right place.

To Jarred's credit your origional thread has been moved back into the main fold. You gotta put yourself in Jim and the boys shoes.. Jim made the decision to try to be open about the creation process of the camera, but we are all learning that to do this can create almost as many probems as it solves. In the end I have no doubt there will be a lot of talk as to weather or not this policy was worth implementing. From my perspective, I could have gone either way.. Tell me, don't tell me.. I'm mainly here to learn about the camera and speak with new friends. When my son was born I jumped on here to share it with all of you.. Sadly not a lot of you got to see it because I was also kicked into the off topic session. While I understood the rules, it was a painful thing to have that happen. I was reminded that the MODS just see me as another user, while I have grown to see all of you as a sort of extended family.. Some of your wonderful posts were read to my wife during labor as a distraction.. Over 60 coaches in the room.. That had to be a first. It would have been nice to have the rules bent for a day. Oh well.. I'm venting, time to move on.

Your cool Michael. It's just a high pressure time, lot's going on right now. Things will calm down when the camera get's over it's final hurdles

Jay
 
Medavoym said:
Jim, I obviously do not know you personally, but I have so much respect for what you're doing for us filmmakers that I don't even want to get into the slightest argument with you. In fact I believe it's not too useful to get into arguments with anyone, truth be told (in that respect, maybe I shouldn't have spoken my mind when I posted in the first place) :-)

However, let me just say that I don't know where this whole "conspiracy theory" came from. If my post sounded like that, I certainly didn't intend it this way. Again, I just politely expressed my opinion, even if I was blunt. Maybe I still believe in it, maybe I don't - it doesn't matter. There are others who thought exactly like me (and you must admit it was very easy for people to reach this conclusion the way the announcements came, even if it would be a wrong one). But that's beside the point.

The point is, why waste time putting people on one's shit list for such small things? (I'll never meet you so your shit list or my shit list means nothing to both of us). But can't anyone express an (even wrong) opinion on Reduser? Especially since he clearly says he is extremely appreciative and supportive of the RED team, and he placed already an order for the camera?

In any case, I wish you all the best with this project, I am personally sure it will deliver even more than expected.

Michael

PS By the way, anyone checking my posts here will see that I am definitely NOT the trolling kind.
Click to expand...

Michael... I apologize for the use of "shit list".

I really don't ask for much here. About the only thing that gets my hackles up is when my honesty is called into question. We are not perfect at RED. But we are trying to be. If there is a problem, I'll tell you. I have no motivation to trick anyone. I just don't need the aggravation. I'm not doing this to add a few more reservation holders. I have said all along that if we only make one of these (for me) I'll be happy. You "inadvertantly" pushed my button. Sorry if my response was too strong.

Jim
 
I'd be lying if I said "it's all good" because this camera is so freakin' awesome I just cannot wait to get it. Honestly it'll be like the best three Christmas presents I've ever had put together. I really can't imagine what it'll be like to open up that package...
 
This whole thing reminds me of movie-making. We're all so caught up in the "process" right now, we've forgotten a little the wonderful thing that got us all here.

The cool part is that when this "project" is screened to the public, all of this will be a distant memory and fun to go back to and read for old time's sake.
Jay
 
I think people have to be very careful when they post in a manner that attacks the character of another person, be it Jim, Ted or any one of us. This forum can't possibly give us a detailed view of what's going on, and we inevitably rely on the information given to us.
But we have to err on the side of trusting people.
If you look for dishonesty and proclaim such with no evidence other than conjecture, it's riding a very slippery slope and personally I can understand Jim's annoyance.
 
My film school, or rather previous film school, the LAFS, did not put any reservations on the RED. Because of numerous problems with the school, including a complete lack of focus on quality equipment and new technology, I dropped from the school with my two business partners today. We took $85,000 with us, which frankly I have better use for than spending at a film school that thinks Avid is 90% of the industry and 16 and 35mm film are what you REALLY need to know.

I frankly couldn't care less about arguments relating to the quality of film and digital right now, because my opinion is set that digital is vastly superior, and has been since the Sony F950 -- if you want to tell me that Revenge of the Sith didn't look better than any movie you've seen in 35mm, then I say you're full of crap and didn't see the movie I did. Plus, I have 20/12 vision, almost twice what the normal person has (thanks, LASIK), so I know what I saw and it was better than film anyway. And yet the RED is better than that. The reason that argument doesn't even matter to me is because the cost of film is too prohibitive for me to use it anyway. So who cares even if film was a bit better? It's a stupid argument. I know a lot of people who have used film for decades are used to it and think it's normal, but to me and a lot of people new to the industry, it's frankly an absolute joke. This isn't 1945. This is 2007. There's no way I should be screwing around with BS 100-year-old analog crap when everything else is digital. The "organic beauty of celluloid film" is such a hoax I cannot understand it. The reason Citizen Kane was voted #1 by the AFI is because it overcame the limitations of film by having deep focus cinematography that was revolutionary, and yet somehow the terrible lack of deep focus in most movies is seen as a benefit to film? And the awful grain is also somehow really a great bonus of shooting in film? Wow. Yeah alright, I guess the typewriter is really better than the computer because it's much better to have to redo an entire document when you make one typo. I'm sorry but no thanks. When old-timers stop seeing flaws as benefits, they'll "get it." I don't have any problem with many shots being in complete focus throughout, ala Star Wars, I prefer to have a background to look at and visual interest that lasts many viewings. Audiences now aren't so stupid that they can't figure out where to look unless you ruin the shot by making only one thing in focus. That isn't the way the eye sees, and I prefer realism. Also, Avid isn't the industry standard. Avid WAS the industry standard, five years ago. I have spoken with enough professionals who work in the industry, and by that I mean in anything related to moving pictures, and I've heard that Avid has about a 60% share of filmmaking right now and Final Cut has a 60% share of broadcast work. Sun Microsystems does NOT use Avid, they use Final Cut and only Final Cut. Every Avid editor I've talked to who has since learned to use Final Cut thinks Avid is a piece of s**t, which it is, in fact, a total piece of s**t that can't compare to Studio 2 on any level whatsoever. Especially when Color is adapted from a much more expensive program that was never available on a consumer level.

Film vs. digital and Avid vs. Final Cut are the same arguments -- traditionalists who refuse to accept the facts versus people who have no sentimentality and just care about the efficiency and quality of the finished product.

A film school that focuses mainly on film and Avid, and charges almost $40,000 for tuition yet cannot buy a single professional steadicam, doesn't have reservations on the RED, has too few HD cams for its students, and has staff who mostly graduated from the school itself in the last 5 years, is not a place that is worth attending.

I can't wait until I get my RED, and my partner David has the RED on order too, so our company will have 2 REDs, the LAFS will have zero. That's pathetic. Already my sound effects library is better than theirs, my lighting kit is better than anything they have, and both of those were less than $1,000 each. Rip-off, big time.

It was a happy day getting my money back today, but not nearly as happy as when my RED comes. Sure, it's "just" a tool, but it's a tool that elevates the professionalism of our company by a large magnitude. It's the type of equipment that gives you back-up options. I'm sure it will not be a problem if I have no work lined up to rent my camera to an independent production and attach myself as a camera operator for an absolute minimum of $500 per day. I doubt that with a prime lens set I'd charge anywhere near that low of a price, considering I've seen some of the companies that plan to charge ridiculous sums for just renting the camera. In any case, it may be a tool, but it's a very powerful one.
 
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