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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

The real price and package with SSD

Christoffer Glans said:
I still don't know how much the SSD's degrade after a while. You cannot use it an unlimited number of time and the degration of speed takes less time. Is it SLC or MLC based drives?
This is superimportant to know. Also, might the prices for the SSD's drop until Scarlet comes out?

Still, they said it will be ready out of the box, if some features aren't avalible because you need SSD, then it isn't "out of the box ready" in my opinion. I'd rather see a "package price" where you get the basic SSD card for a little less then it's worth in store if you buy it with Scarlet.

But I'm still very interested in what type of SSD's these really are... a SSD drive degrade alot if you use the entire space, erase it and use it again.
Click to expand...

I personally expect the SSD's to degrade just as traditional SSD's do, regardless of type - gradually becoming slower over time. I think that the smallest SSD's will be the one's to degrade the fastest due to the limited spacing and the possibility that the user will fill them up pretty early on - thus automatically making them slower from this point on due to the way SSD's handle and store files - also including the "deleted" files (unless they are completely formatted - deleting everything and leaving them as new - regaining their fast performance).

But, unlike the SSD's used as drives on a computer, I don't think that they will be degrading at equal pace. I presume that a computer would do much more write/reading off the SSD's than there would be done on a SSD-module on a RED camera. Therefore I expect them to last much longer than they would if they were inside a computer.

Another thing; do we know if the announced size of the drives are the actual REAL size? Maybe there is more memory-space on them than announced - partitioned to leave space for a faster performance (SSD's need empty and unused "memory-space" to perform faster if they've previously been "filled up" and "deleted/formatted").

Regardless - the possibility of using SSD's instead of CF-cards or FILM for that matter is truly amazing and extremely cost effective compared to the other alternatives - especially film! Just the fact that you can use the media again and again - unlike film - is just amazing. The only thing I would think would be fair, was to clearly state an expected top-performance estimate, to minimize the risk of having shooters utilize an almost "dead"-drive.

To the matter of the expected contents of the "ready to shoot"-package, I'm not at all expecting there to be media included, nor a Redmag Station. I can understand why someone would think that the package would include an SSD side-module and a SSD card, especially when Ted himself have hinted that what he's been walking around with in his hands at CES and NAB was the setup being sold at about 6K usd - BUT, to be realistic - the content would most likely be the Camera body, the 5" touch screen, the grip, redmote, redvolt battery, battery charger and...

...the last thing would be the inclusion of a side module for media. Like everything else in the "package", it is still unknown whether it's going to be default with a SSD-module or CF-module. There have been talks of a CF-adapter that could be inserted into the SSD-module, and that leads me to think that the SSD could possibly become the default side-module. SSD is fast becoming the most logical way of recording footage from RED cameras and it will, no doubt, be the preferred side-module in the very near future - if not already! Even though many still utilize the CF-module (on major motion pictures) I personally can't see why a NEW camera should be default with a CF - that just seems to me as a step back in time. SSD is the future and even though SCARLET is aimed at the indie-crowd, RED should consistently insist on bringing out the best of best - promoting to the new generation of filmmakers to utilize SSD's as the new standard. ...just my thought.

Honestly, if RED decided to sell the SCARLET body alone at 6K, I still wouldn't be disappointed. As Ted has stated many times, the final pricing will be amazingly cheap when you consider what you in fact will get, and they will do everything to make things as cost effective as possible for the costumers. I have absolutely no doubt that they will!

SCARLET and EPIC are TOP-professional filmmaking tools. Anyone who doesn't realize the cost of moving into this technology, hasn't really thought things through. Amazing as they may be, SSD's of course eventually needs to be replaced at some point, and even though I consider this media as cheap and cost effective, it's still a lot of money if you consider buying several mag's - not to mention all the other accessories you'll need for these cameras. For the everyday-person, buying these cameras are a serious investment - and like any other investment, you really need to seriously consider all the terms before dedicating yourself to anything.
 
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David Rasberry said:
Final prices and configurations for any packages haven't been announced yet anyway. But I know of no pro camera maker that includes their proprietary media or external card readers with a basic camera package. Does Panasonic include a P2 deck and cards? Does Sony include SXS cards and players?

Whatever Scarlet prices out at, it will be an exceptional value for its quality, performance, and features. Whether one can afford the camera and everything needed to support it is a separate issue.
Click to expand...

To play devils advocate a little... Red never seem to do things the same as their pro camera competitors.
I agree with your comment that the Scarlet(s) will be an amazing jump in quality, features (etc) for great value in comparison to whats currently available.

I've always taken the view that the price will be what it will be. I might want to own a Ferrari, but I'm not going to demand that the company lower its prices so I can buy it.
 
Jarek Zabczynski said:
I'm going with two 64gig Mags to start with. I also agree that the CF part of RED should just go away and die.
Click to expand...

I'd very much like the option to utilize CF-cards to stay (and there has been no indication that RED will take CF off the line - just yet!). I expect that CF will still go strong for a while. Just the fact that they are so small and practical in size and can record such great images is awesome - though have "limitations" when it comes to long 5K shoots, HDRx and/or elaborate varispeed shooting. They've been used for a few and very recent big-budget blockbuster films - they'll still be "good enough" for the indie filmmakers for a while! ;)

...I'm actually very curious about the CF-adapter for the SSD side-module.
 
When was the last time Sony included a lifetime supply of tape with one of their camera systems? :001_smile:
 
I'm sure they will allow for CF-cards.

It would be a serious mistake not to. The SSD is a module and available to those who prefer it.

But I think we can agree that there will be a pretty large group of the Scarlet customer base that will want an as low as possible entry point.
 
Christoffer Glans said:
I still don't know how much the SSD's degrade after a while. You cannot use it an unlimited number of time and the degration of speed takes less time. Is it SLC or MLC based drives?
Click to expand...

People forget that CF cards use flash as well, with no TRIM and less spare area than an SSD, and therefore have LESS lifespan!
 
Christoffer Glans said:
I still don't know how much the SSD's degrade after a while. You cannot use it an unlimited number of time and the degration of speed takes less time. Is it SLC or MLC based drives?
This is superimportant to know. Also, might the prices for the SSD's drop until Scarlet comes out?

Still, they said it will be ready out of the box, if some features aren't avalible because you need SSD, then it isn't "out of the box ready" in my opinion. I'd rather see a "package price" where you get the basic SSD card for a little less then it's worth in store if you buy it with Scarlet.

But I'm still very interested in what type of SSD's these really are... a SSD drive degrade alot if you use the entire space, erase it and use it again.
Click to expand...

This is why camera manufacturers produce their own proprietary media. So they can deal with issues like continuous write to capacity and repeated use that off the shelf data media doesn't address.
The usable features and performance of the camera will be limited by choice of media, not because the features are not enabled in camera. The maximum reliable sustained write speed of the media will be the limiting factor for frame rates, compression ratios, etc. With Epic, Red has already pushed the camera performance envelope beyond what even their own SSD's can support at present. Media will have to catch up to the camera, not the other way round.
 
I really like RED's SSD-modules, i'll go that route anyway, but supporting CF still makes sense.

CF has one big advantage, 3rd-party support. There is still some development going on, the format isn't dead. Some producers have announced 256GB cards. I'm sure some of the newer and upcoming cards will be good enough for Scarlet and maybe EPIC(-S). Sure, not for extreme settings, but as long as one can shoot 24fps with a reasonable compression-ratio its usable.

Having such a standardized media-format can save your day, because you can always run into the next electronics store and buy some cards.
 
i wouldn't count on using off-the-shelf cards...

i'm leaning towards the ssd's in either case. i'd almost rather it be the default, but we'll see.
 
+1 on the off-the-shelf cards; it's in the nature of the digital electronic beast that what was rare and expensive yesterday (media consistently and unbreakably fast enough to support RED data rates) will be cheap and commonplace tomorrow. In fact I'm planning a trip to B&H soon to try a selection of the latest & greatest CF cards to see which will allow 4K recording on my R1; I know the Lexar Pro 300x 8GB are good because I'm using them already at 4K and never a dropped frame. Hopefully the 16 & 32 will be just as reliable.

On the SSD thing... it's really my gut feeling that RED will only offer SSD modules on all their future cameras. The manufacturing cost can't be much different, it has the great benefit of standardisation, and there will be a cheap adapter allowing those who want to continue using CF to do so. That prescription just seems to be full of win for everyone.

As I've said before, it's a great benefit to everyone that RED have chosen to go for an industry-standard non-proprietary storage solution in SSD. Capacities will rise quickly and costs will fall even faster, and of course it opens the field to alternative 3rd party storage options. 128GB may be $1800 today; it'll be $800 this time next year and I'd take a bet on that.

Mike
 
mike, i'm pretty sure the firmware doesn't allow alien cards to record anything above 2k, whether or not the advertised recording speeds match the camera data. most of those cards just can't get anywhere close. red would have to update their firmware specifically for a card, and they don't seem too keen on that given the unreliability of off-the-shelf media. even cards from the same production run differ greatly in their performance and reliability, and none of them live up to the advertised specs with sustained read/write. there's been a lot of past discussion on this issue, and red's official stance is that they would love to allow off-the-shelf media that was cheaper, but it just won't work at this time or in the near future. and they can't risk their reputation on the few that would just like to experiment or save a buck. sorry, but i agree with them.
 
Paul, the camera must be doing something to interrogate the card and determine the actual (as opposed to advertised) performance; the RED cards work, my Lexar cards work, other cards of greater or equal sustained performance should/could work.

Of course, yes, you're going completely off on your own; no-one can expect RED to promise any card except those they make themselves will work: on the contrary, they can guarantee from past experience that many of them will NOT work. So you have to be prepared to do your own testing and form your own judgement. If you whine to RED that you lost data or dropped frames, it'll be 'Was it a RED card? Nope? Then you're own your own'.

Oh and it's not 'anything above 2k' that matters; 2k @ 120FPS is shifting data at a rate close to 4k @ 24FPS (modulo the REDcode setting of course) and a *hell* of a lot more than 4K undercranked or time-lapse (which I will be doing at some points); it's the sustained data rate that matters, not the resolution (to state the obvious!). I'll happily use any reasonably brisk card if I'm time-lapsing 4k @ 1FPS, and I won't care that it would fall flat on its face at 24FPS.

Mike
 
i'm pretty sure they've made a particular exception for those lexar cards that work, unless they allow any card but limit it to 2k (in which case some wouldn't even record anything). i've only ever used RED cards, and recommend that, but i'm pretty sure the lexars are limited at 2k, 24fps.

for timelapse use, that might be a valid consideration, just about any card could do that.

just don't order a bunch of cards and expect them to work. i know the firmware won't allow them to do anything more than 2k. in any case, i would be careful... and i still recommend the red media. you're not going to save that much in the long run, and i think you might just regret it, but test it out and decide for yourself (just be ready for dropped frames, etc. and a faster deterioration of the card)
 
Paul, my 8GB Lexars run just fine at all the data rates supported by RED 8GB cards. Last time I shot it was 4K 2:1 24FPS RC28 IIRC.

I'm certainly not buying anything on spec; as I said I'll drag a RED and a laptop into B&H and impose on them to let me test a few of likely candidate cards; benchmark them on the laptop using a performance analyser, then see what the RED thinks of them; whether or not I get a 'speed' warning message. From past experience a lot of cards which appear encouraging have inconsistent performance, and show occasional dips in speed on sustained writes; not important for most applications but would kill their RED usefulness stone dead.

My storage needs are bit different to the average RED user, and I was a hacker for many many years before I ever picked up a movie camera, so I'm more than happy to experiment; I'll post the findings in my copious free time!

There should really be a sticky about this; which cards work at which speeds, which don't work at all, and what all the issues are.

Mike
 
Mike 'Fireman' Ross said:
+1 on the off-the-shelf cards; it's in the nature of the digital electronic beast that what was rare and expensive yesterday (media consistently and unbreakably fast enough to support RED data rates) will be cheap and commonplace tomorrow. In fact I'm planning a trip to B&H soon to try a selection of the latest & greatest CF cards to see which will allow 4K recording on my R1; I know the Lexar Pro 300x 8GB are good because I'm using them already at 4K and never a dropped frame. Hopefully the 16 & 32 will be just as reliable.

On the SSD thing... it's really my gut feeling that RED will only offer SSD modules on all their future cameras. The manufacturing cost can't be much different, it has the great benefit of standardisation, and there will be a cheap adapter allowing those who want to continue using CF to do so. That prescription just seems to be full of win for everyone.

As I've said before, it's a great benefit to everyone that RED have chosen to go for an industry-standard non-proprietary storage solution in SSD. Capacities will rise quickly and costs will fall even faster, and of course it opens the field to alternative 3rd party storage options. 128GB may be $1800 today; it'll be $800 this time next year and I'd take a bet on that.

Mike
Click to expand...

I'll take you up on that bet Mike. How much?

Best, Peter
 
Peter Strietmann said:
I'll take you up on that bet Mike. How much?

Best, Peter
Click to expand...

Heh heh heh

I'd take you up on that, but honestly... it wouldn't be fair; keep it quiet, but I'm actually working (early stages yet) on my own SSD solution for RED storage.

If I can't get it working in year, I should give up hacking! If I can't put it together for less than $800/128GB... well we'll see!

Mike
 
I don't know that I would go around talking about attempting to circumvent Red's media policies if you have any interest in staying in Red's good graces...(even though I think its pretty neat :)
 
Andrew, forgive me if I'm wrong but I don't think RED *have* any published 'media policies', beyond 'if it isn't RED media we don't support it, we advise against it, and it quite probably won't work reliably enough for most production use'?

If anyone knows any different please point me to the statement!

Mike
 
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