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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

The Oct 29th cut-off

Mark Allen said:
RED made a promise: "Obsolescence is Obsolete." Then they decided it would be smarter to redesign their camera from scratch pretty much. Yes, you can upgrade your RED, but they knew that all the people who threw a lot of money at them early on would feel a little cheated, so they needed to make a concession. But where do you stop? The first 100 cameras? The first 500 cameras? At some point, some one is going to feel cheated.
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I think you said it Mark, someone is always going to feel cheated. There seem to be quite a few onlookers that never actually decided to purchase a RED One but said, "well I was going to but..." Woulda, coulda, shoulda. What do you expect, RED to cater to you and offer you the same benefits as its current customers that have been working out in the field with the camera since day 1, helping to make the company what it is today. To even be able to offer these options to the amount of camera owners they are offering this generous gift to shows that RED cares of their customers needs and concerns and works hard to alleviate those concerns. There's all of a sudden this strange sense of entitlement for folks that haven't spent a dime and are just complaining cause they are truly pissed at themselves for not acting sooner.
Someone mentioned earlier that RED is turning into an elitist fraternity. Well, maybe it is but it does not discriminate and if you want to join RED is always happy to have you. Like my dad always used to tell me, "its shit or get off the pot time".
 
Okay then, I have something else that's throwing me off. I thought the Epic-X was only for pre-Oct. 29, and Stage 4 (or anything after the 29th) is strictly Epic-S35 and not the Epic-X. But most people here are refering to the Epic-X in Stage 4. I thought the whole point of the Epic-X was to reward early adopters of Red Cameras. And thus there would be a cut off for that version of the camera.
 
mikeburton said:
I think you said it Mark, someone is always going to feel cheated.
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There is absolutely no reason for anyone to feel cheated ... RED has always been fully open ... and going in they remind you that since they are at the tip of the spear ... things are subject to change. Absolutely everyone who as of the announcement on Oct 29, owned a RED ONE, has several options with which they can recoup their original RED ONE investment. For those who feel they have missed the boat ... it has been my experience in life that when you miss a boat, there's usually a better one soon to come by, except for Rachael ... but that's another story ...
 
Andrew McCarrick said:
Okay then, I have something else that's throwing me off. I thought the Epic-X was only for pre-Oct. 29, and Stage 4 (or anything after the 29th) is strictly Epic-S35 and not the Epic-X. But most people here are refering to the Epic-X in Stage 4. I thought the whole point of the Epic-X was to reward early adopters of Red Cameras. And thus there would be a cut off for that version of the camera.
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From all the info I have seen: Epic X and Epic S35 are essentially the same camera, only difference is the engraving and the fact that Epic-X comes bundled with modules and accessories, and (as you said) Epic-X is made for current RED owners only (now prior to 30th. nov. 09 owners).

So technically an Epic-X brain is the same as the Epic S-35, or so it seems from the information released to date.
 
Eirik Tyrihjel said:
From all the info I have seen: Epic X and Epic S35 are essentially the same camera, only difference is the engraving and the fact that Epic-X comes bundled with modules and accessories, and (as you said) Epic-X is made for current RED owners only (now prior to 30th. nov. 09 owners).

So technically an Epic-X brain is the same as the Epic S-35, or so it seems from the information released to date.
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I believe the the Epic-X has a Mysterium-X Select sensor and the Epic S35 is just the Mysterium-X. I don't know the difference between the two, but that's what I'm seeing on the other graphic.

http://www.red.com/epic_scarlet/
(Under Detailed System Specs.)

I don't know if things have changed since then though? Or if they're technically the same sensor.
 
Andrew McCarrick said:
I believe the the Epic-X has a Mysterium-X Select sensor and the Epic S35 is just the Mysterium-X. I don't know the difference between the two, but that's what I'm seeing on the other graphic.

http://www.red.com/epic_scarlet/
(Under Detailed System Specs.)

I don't know if things have changed since then though? Or if they're technically the same sensor.
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i think it sounds like new sensors, as with cpus, and i believe microphones, do not all come off the production line equal.

the -x select sensors will probably be those that have been tested after production and have been found to perform best, have the cleanest image etc
 
Andrew McCarrick said:
That's not what that graphic says... I see nothing about a trade-in.

graphic.png
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Im not sure i get what you are asking for here...you want a) tattoo? stage 2,stage 3 and because you pop your head in to the red user site? you either have a camera body and are in line to be rewarded or not.

dont understand what you want. Honestly if you bought a used camera now and trusted the previous owner to pass along the trade-up your in the drivers seat again. I am sure that it wouldnt be cheap though.

in the words of the Late Billy Preston "nothing from nothing leaves nothing..
 
Eirik Tyrihjel said:
From all the info I have seen: Epic X and Epic S35 are essentially the same camera, only difference is the engraving and the fact that Epic-X comes bundled with modules and accessories, and (as you said) Epic-X is made for current RED owners only (now prior to 30th. nov. 09 owners).

So technically an Epic-X brain is the same as the Epic S-35, or so it seems from the information released to date.
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just heard that X comes with the choice pieces of the silicon pie....mmmm...mmm cant wait!
 
Peter Matthes said:
Yes ... You missed the point if the post.

...

My frustration with rich kids sitting on these cameras

....
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In your firt post you refer to "trust fund" folks being able to afford these cameras. Here you refer to them as "rich kids" just sitting on cameras.

Don't you feel that's a tad insulting to the likely thousands of these camera owners who worked hard to be able to get to the point of being able to afford an R1, and then leveraging it as an important part of their business?

I can't afford an R1 (I'm not even in the biz), but I don't assume that a majority (or even any) of R1 owners are spoiled rich brats bying cameras because they've run out of exotic sports cars to buy...

-sc
 
This thread and many others make me really sad.
Once what was a friendly, constructive and full of resources user group, became a bash party fiesta full of grudges and frustrations.
If that is a natural evolution of things then be it, but I still hope it'll get in the right directions once again.
 
albert rudnicki said:
This thread and many others make me really sad.
Once what was a friendly, constructive and full of resources user group, became a bash party fiesta full of grudges and frustrations.
If that is a natural evolution of things then be it, but I still hope it'll get in the right directions once again.
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It's true. Some people just barely became old enough to even get into figuring out camera's and getting into the industry, much less being veterans with multi-million dollar budget films.

The argument "The people who were there along the way should have something more than you!" doesn't stand ground. Apple doesn't give the people who tagged along longer than others special treats. They do however do the typical upgrade option so I think that's fine. If you bought in a certain time period just before the release of the new product you should be able to trade up/pay the difference/whatever. With RED, I think it's a fun, and good thing that Jim is doing but you shouldn't tell people they are stupid for not buying. Aside from Jim's mention that you will have wished you bought a RED One, you can't make a full on multi-ten thousand dollar purchase decision based on that, especially with the track record so far of RED and the statement "everything changes". Based on the last two days, we've learned that we can pretty much trust nothing that's ever said - ever from RED. They are making a point of it.
 
Peter Matthes said:
Then there is little to no reason to buy a RED One now for the new camera buyer.
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You mean that If I buy a camera now, then get a good 6 months+ worth out of work with it, or use it as part of a rental package.... and then have a GUARANTEED resale value of it's purchase price to anyone wanting to purchase the Epic brain, then there's not much point in me buying the camera?

It's not like it's the stock market or anything, most pieces of technology hardware have a very short lifespan - this offer in comparison is incredible, if I brought a new computer and was told in 6 months time, or upgrade myself to a new motherboard for it's value I could sell the motherboard for the same purchase price that I originally got it for I'd say that's a hell of a deal, and it would be.

So is this offer from RED.

Anyone buying a RED ONE right now is getting a hell of a deal on a piece of equipment compared to ANY OTHER camera from any other manufacturer out there, because there still isn't anything at all in the price range that compares. Only if the market for RED ONES is already completely saturated (i.e no more people at all would have wanted a new RED ONE camera) would the idea that there is no point in buying a new red one come into play at all, because you are assuming for everyone else it was just a down payment on an EPIC-X system.
 
If one purchases a RED ONE today it requries thousands and thousands of dollars of accessories to properly rent it out ... Unless you are going to use it as a back up body rental. If you talk to any professional renter of this camera system, he or she will tell you that they have spent more in accessories than they did for the body in order to professionally utilize it.

1) There is no guarentee that all of those accessories are deliverable right away or even fairly soon. In fact there is no guarentee that the body is even deliverable right away. How much of those six months will be spent waiting for pieces to arrive?

2) There is no way of knowing which of those R1 accessories will be 100% useful or outdated in relation to the Epic and there is no trade in value for those.

I have worked with five different RED ONE bodies ... Including Off Hollywood's "Hannibal", and I do not deny that it is a great system, but in my opinion there is little use for me to buy a RED ONE at this point.

Since there is no more ensentive whatsoever to buy a RED ONE body after Oct 30th, I would just as soon continue to rent out the camera system I have now and stick my $30,000 in a six month certificate of deposit.
 
Peter Matthes said:
If one purchases a RED ONE today it requries thousands and thousands of dollars of accessories to properly rent it out ... Unless you are going to use it as a back up body rental. If you talk to any professional renter of this camera system, he or she will tell you that they have spent more in accessories than they did for the body in order to professionally utilize it.

1) There is no guarentee that all of those accessories are deliverable right away or even fairly soon. In fact there is no guarentee that the body is even deliverable right away. How much of those six months will be spent waiting for pieces to arrive?

2) There is no way of knowing which of those R1 accessories will be 100% useful or outdated in relation to the Epic and there is no trade in value for those.

I have worked with five different RED ONE bodies ... Including Off Hollywood's "Hannibal", and I do not deny that it is a great system, but in my opinion there is little use for me to buy a RED ONE at this point.

Since there is no more ensentive whatsoever to buy a RED ONE body after Oct 30th, I would just as soon continue to rent out the camera system I have now and stick my $30,000 in a six month certificate of deposit.
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Peter,

I think that if you look at things from the perspective of "how does one get the most for the least" then you certainly might have a point. But If you stop to understand that in the last year you've had the sheer benefit of others buying and you renting from them. It really isnt easy to own and operate basically an amazing camera asit is, but at the same time it has and remains a beta and i for one always had to keep the phone close when one was out on rental as im sure all the owner/renters did. Yet Jim kept the
door open till the day before the announcement and gave warning that either
you didnt hear or heed.I believe the thread to be a bit insulting because where were you when those of us in countries that shipping is impossible had to fly to LA on our own dime to get things right with our packages?

IMO you havnt kept the situation in perspective

still, all the best
 
Zachary Marsh said:
It's true. Some people just barely became old enough to even get into figuring out camera's and getting into the industry, much less being veterans with multi-million dollar budget films.
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Please tell me why this is even a topic of discussion. I can understand being upset regarding the cut off date but I see no incentive to cry about who can/did purchase a RED One. Obviously, you didn't. So what do you care who bought one for what reason. Guess what, if you are a professional with a multi-million dollar budget you would have bought a camera already or have no need to purchase cause production always rents all the gear you need.
This sense of entitlement is getting a little annoying.
What I think is sad is that you have only a few posts here, all of which have probably been complaints of some kind and expect something for free. I'm done after this arguing about jealousy. You didn't react quick enough, deal with it and quit using your time in the industry as an excuse to feel entitled. Or, show us your Oscar then maybe we will give you a pass.
 
The $17,500 trade-in allowance is a gift from Jim. I suspect He's trying to manage the amount of first-generation product that is on the street. If he gets the first round of product back in sufficient numbers, he can keep the number of trained service technicians, spare parts and manufactured assets to a minimum and still keep those cameras working for the long haul. He can phase out Red One suppliers, keep a surplus in inventory and put the lion's share of his technical resources focused on the new product line. So I can understand if Red is seeming to de-incentivize the sale of new Red One cameras that will only be coming back to the nest sooner rather than later when Epic is released.

Red wants you to buy an Epic or a Scarlet. If you bought a Red One, Jim is saying thanks for the trust, now let's get you into the Epic system. Then he can upgrade the reconditioned Red Ones and sell them at a new price point between the fixed lens Scarlet and the entry level Epic, perhaps to schools or universities.

I understand the concerns on both sides of this issue, and both are valid. But Jim can't continue to pay for these development costs out of pocket, he has to transition his business to the new pricing structure of Epic and Scarlet and get those Red One's back home so there's not 7,000 cameras in the world that will tie up his support resources and bleed his ability to support the new program.

This would explain why there was originally no Stage 2 in the plan. He doesn't want you to keep your Red One, he wants you to send it back home and buy an Epic. It also would explain why the cut-off date for the upgrade was back-dated, so that anyone wanting an Epic will just go ahead and wait for it and not buy a Red One just to get the upgrade allowance later. I have no doubt he will continue to support the Red One, but I see this as a way to do that in the most efficient way possible, without diluting the resources required to launch Epic/Scarlet and support them properly.
 
JJ posted a thread titled "LAST Time " on Sept 18, 2009
http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=35176

it stated
"This will be the last time I post this. Those that don't own a RED ONE will wish they did."

so i assume those complaining are the "Those" that JJ was referring to who will wish they did .....
 
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