The Next Revolution

[Steve Sherrick]

Harry, understand your pain. However, I think your question also brings to light a reality that a lot of people are not considering when they jump into the game of professional video these days. The fact is that with this new way of acquiring video to data files, we have to have a means by which to store those files safely, and there has to be a price for doing this. A $5,000 LTO device is certainly cheaper than the decks that you would need in years past that allowed for duplicating masters to backups, digitizing, etc. What I'm sensing is that those making the jump from prosumer formats are expecting prices of gear to fall in line with the prices they are used to. I will agree that a lot of professional video gear has fallen in price, and for small shops that is certainly a good thing. But we have to be realistic. If the cheapening of the industry continues, at some point it will be nearly impossible to make a living at it.

So, Harry I will ask you this, what is affordable to you? How much would you be willing to spend on a backup device that perhaps had increased compatibility so that the media could be easily moved between facilities? Keep in mind the R&D that would go into this, the marketing to get it accepted, etc. Also think about what the sales volume would be if it's only used in one industry, in this case the film/video industry.

By the way I have found LTO 3 and 4 drives for under $2,000 on ebay. Perhaps that is one way to get into it. Then upgrade once it starts paying for itself.

By the way, I'm not trying to say you are coming from a prosumer background. I've just noticed that people that have moved from that background into the world of RED or other high end cameras seem shocked by the pricing of accessories, and post tools.

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

Red Ray has nothing to do with data storage. It's a delivery system for a heavily compressed version of the final picture.

I understand Red Ray is a delivery system (saw it at REDUSER VEGAS and it was awesome)

but since its "THEORETICALLY" storing data on a disk for display via what looks like a type of DVD player, is that not also a storage solution? I've seen many comments on the RED RAY threads talking about ungodly file sizes being burned to DVD-R.

such as this one...

They've said that RedRay will host 2hours of 4k on a DVD-R. That makes my brain hurt.

Excepting of course that only RED knows what NEW codec will be used
or many other technical details.

If it indeed is compressing to DVD-R, Why then, could one (again theoretically) not use RED RAY to store large amounts of data?

Yes, I am aware of the limitations and strengths of multiple long term storage solutions as there is another excellent thread on here (cant find it yet) that addressed/discussed/debated this issue of LONG TERM storage to great lengths... such as DVD's only lasting 10 years. LTO 30 to 50 years.. etc.

somehow I think RED Rocket™™ will have a lot to do with RED RAY. but then maybe Im an idiot (highly likely) and not understanding
where all this new innovation is going. Sure seems like they are smartly laying the groundwork for these issues
BEFORE they release new cameras to market.

thanks

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

The discussion of what to use for backup is old and not really solved in a thoroughly satisfying way. We do amongst other things long tem docs and since two years on the RedOne. Here footage storage is vital. This is how we handle the vast amount of footage currently:

1. HDDs are cheap (1TB 90 EUR), easy to access and eveybody can read them. Downside is their lack of realiability, seeing them dying on the shelf happend not only once.

2. Then there is tape. It's even cheaper per GB and very reliable for longterm storage. Unfortunately there is no standard to read them. They need special backup software. All software vendors use their propietary backup format.

What I do: We use both, HDDs and LTO. HDD for easy access and LTO for longterm storage. We have the projects backuped on HDDs and on LTO, plus the footage on an extra LTO backup set. The LTO backups are stored in a different location and only used in the not too likely failure of a backup on the HDDs.

Hans

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

As much as I agree that LTO4 is a reasonably priced backup device I'm troubled by they fact that:

There seems to be no 'archive' oriented software available for any price.

I'm finding fudging archiving out of retrospect on MAC and LTO4 problematic and flakey. Definitely not a 'solution'!

Anyone got a 'solution' I don't know about?

regards

Michael L

Retrospect on the Mac is dangerous. This software killed a few of our's backup sets. I changed to Bru, in my case Bru PE, and don't look back. The good thing about Bru is the fact that their backups can be restored. The interface is easy to understand. Creating incremential backups is not really working yet. Otherwise a viable option.

I create always two backups, with a sole footage tape atcually three. One of the backups is on HDDs. This makes you compatible to others and gives you a more convenient access to the data than LTO has. But to have all your data also on LTO give you a better sleep.


Hans

 

[Dave Blackham]

Apologies for the minor hijack here- can anyone recommend a good LTO for use with a MAc Pro? I hadn't heard of an LTO until just a few minutes ago, and I'm assimilating info as fast as I can, but a specific recommendation would be great. Burning to archival DVDs is just painful.

The Tandberg units are very good. There a low cost half height stand alone drive that works well.

If you want it to behave in a managed fashion then using CatDV, DAX and Bru server allows a proper archive to be created so retreval for a specific shot can be requested from and FCP time line or catDV archive. in other words you can conform from it.

 

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

Data Bank

Data Bank

I've been thinking about this too. How about such a concept:

A Data Bank..


Instead of worrying about current/obsolete storage technologies for the backups, one can go to a certain kind of company who's main job is to provide solid long-term data backup service.

You go there with your mutiple TeraBytes of RedCode footage [for example] and *rent* storage space from them. You pay an yearly fee for the space and they take care of your footage for you - multiple-backups, power safety, encryption, etc. Like a bank.

In this way, you don't have to worry too much about obsolete technologies and HDD, LTO, etc. and leave that to the Data Bank guys. You just pay your fee, upload your footage and whistle..

Of course, I'd keep another backup copy or two with me, but it'd be nice to have such an extra option.

And with Internet speeds growing fast, you could even perform the whole task using an online interface, like a FTP.

I googled for such companies, but couldn't find any.

Does anybody know of something similar?

 

[Steve Sherrick]

How is everyone charging their clients for archiving the footage? Per gigabyte, per terabyte, flat rate? If the client has entrusted you with this service, and paid a fee for it do you have enough protection/insurance in the case of loss of data that results in the client potentially suing? I'm just curious how people are handling these things? I think this would be a great topic for an upcoming Reduser event.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

How is everyone charging their clients for archiving the footage? Per gigabyte, per terabyte, flat rate?

All quotes we do contain archiving costs. This is the break-down:

1. The LTO drive costs 4k including the needed application, boards, cables, etc... Devided by 24 months we have to pay 170 EUR per months for the drive and another 10% for hypothetic interest which raises the amount to approx. 200 EUR.

2. Assuming you need for a project the tape drive 2 months (every other day we add files to the backup set) we have costs of 400 EUR.

3. Add to this 35 EUR per tape, and we need 5 tapes, that will add another 175 EUR.

4. Now we have labor of say 4 hours @ 60 EUR. Another 240 EUR

The backup costs are now roughly 800 EUR.

If the client has entrusted you with this service, and paid a fee for it do you have enough protection/insurance in the case of loss of data that results in the client potentially suing? I'm just curious how people are handling these things? I think this would be a great topic for an upcoming Reduser event.

We create 2 backups (1 HDDs, 1 LTOs) plus one footage only backup (LTO). In footage critical jobs we create a 3rd backup and give this into the client's hands. Done this several times. Solves all suing worries and lets you sleep in peace.

Hans

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

If you want it to behave in a managed fashion then using CatDV, DAX and Bru server allows a proper archive to be created so retreval for a specific shot can be requested from and FCP time line or catDV archive. in other words you can conform from it.

Dave, If I understand you correctly CatDV can drive the tape drive and is able to restore data off an EDL/XML?

Hans

 

[PatrickW]

For a while I have been dreaming of a solution to the lack of a quality storage solution. My dreams were inspired by the nightmares of many creative types: loss of art.

Ultimately I see the storage solution as being a service, not a product. With the technology of highspeed internet access almost world wide, fast airmail shipping and cloud computing, I think it is possible in the near future for data to be uploaded or shipped to storage clouds, with internet access.

I would love to see a Green Server Farm, powered by a hybrid renewable energy source as a central facility (with multiple remote locations) to act as a massive cloud computer storing multiple copies of data chunks across a vast whirling silicon monolith. Having a flexible system allowing customers to choose the level of data redundancy they need from various formates, a centralized data warehouse could solve the problem of data retention in a professional manner, rather than having the masses of the new generation of creative professionals and amatures with passion for digital art, lose another song, image or frame.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

With the technology of highspeed internet access almost world wide, fast airmail shipping and cloud computing, I think it is possible in the near future for data to be uploaded or shipped to storage clouds, with internet access.

Currently we have "produced" in just 3 months over 8 TB of data. And we are a compratively small shop. Until your vision comes true I will have to deal with another 100+ TB, locally.

Hans

 

[Steve Sherrick]

We create 2 backups (1 HDDs, 1 LTOs) plus one footage only backup (LTO). In footage critical jobs we create a 3rd backup and give this into the client's hands. Done this several times. Solves all suing worries and lets you sleep in peace.

Hans

I think that certainly is the safe route, and storing backups in multiple locations will bring the risk factor down even further. What I was getting at is to offer a proper media archiving service that guarantees the client's footage, one has to be committed to such service, and that can mean investing in the proper technology and manpower, both of which come at a price. It's one thing if you are offering to archive footage as a courtesy in addition to the backups the client walks away with, but a whole other can of worms if you are charging for it as a service and guaranteeing it.

 

[paul gill]

i read an article a while ago in sound on sound about a composer who stored all his archives on well branded firewire drives. He had to pull one out from 2 years previous and the drive was dead. This prompted him to check all the drives and he found that of all drives which had not been used for more than 6 months there was a consistent failure rate, which after investigating he realised was the mechanical parts seizing, in particular the bearings. so if you use this sort of archiving, its recomennded that you spin up the drives every now and then just to keep them going.

 

[M Most]

I understand Red Ray is a delivery system (saw it at REDUSER VEGAS and it was awesome)

No, you didn't. You saw footage compressed using the Red Ray codec playing back from a hard drive. Similar, but not the same thing.

but since its "THEORETICALLY" storing data on a disk for display via what looks like a type of DVD player, is that not also a storage solution? I've seen many comments on the RED RAY threads talking about ungodly file sizes being burned to DVD-R.

They're not ungodly file sizes. The Red Ray codec as demonstrated at NAB was only 10Mb per second. That's only a little over a megabyte, so a 120 minute feature would take up less than 150 megabytes at that rate. Much less than the DVD capacity of 4GB on a single sided disk.

If it indeed is compressing to DVD-R, Why then, could one (again theoretically) not use RED RAY to store large amounts of data?

Because it's a VIDEO CODEC, not some magical general purpose data compressor.

I repeat what I said before: Red Ray has nothing to do with general purpose data storage. It is a high resolution video delivery system.

 

[Deanan]

They're not ungodly file sizes. The Red Ray codec as demonstrated at NAB was only 10Mb per second. That's only a little over a megabyte, so a 120 minute feature would take up less than 150 megabytes at that rate. Much less than the DVD capacity of 4GB on a single sided disk.

What have you done with the real Mike Most?

The real Mike wouldn't forget to multiply by 24.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

What have you done with the real Mike Most?

The real Mike wouldn't forget to multiply by 24.

Would the real Mike Most please step forward. I can't believe what I just read.

 

[Harry Lipnick]

What have you done with the real Mike Most?

The real Mike wouldn't forget to multiply by 24.

Deanan, wouldn't that be 60, for each second in a minute, or am I just a bonehead too?
Peace,

-Harry

 

[Steve Freebairn]

From my numbers

10Mb/sec * 60 sec/min * 120min / 8Mb/MB = 9000MB