The main missing professional features in redcine.

[Mark L. Pederson]

If your opinion is that red should cancel its softwares, fine.
If you are satisfied with the current redcine, fine.

We, our customers and most of the users we speak to daily have a different POV.
There are few, but mayor, obstacles in the way to allow redcine to be a fully functional part of the workflow chain.

That is not what I said.

When you see what I saw - you'll change your tune.:devil:

 

[I Bloom]

Laguun,

I don't know if my tool is right for you. But I will say I intend to support EDL's directly, as well as other forms of XML besides Final Cut.

I am making some changes to improve my current Redcine workflow, but if there are no further developments extending the interoperability of Redcine, I also have trouble seeing its long term future.

Our difference is perhaps that I assume this state will continue and am mobilizing for better solutions.

IBloom

 

[laguun]

That is not what I said.

When you see what I saw - you'll change your tune.:devil:

I am always open to good surprises - but independent of the fact that once redcode will be allowed to be supported by more than 2 companies, *many* excellent products will officially appear, redcine is the tool many usual customers will use - especially those who wont/cant change their workflows, they need a basic ability to integrate red in-house in their work, be it linux (smoke/flame/inferno), windows (avid ds/matrix) etc.

4K realtime playback, i/o and 4K realtime colorcorrection and 4K 16bit mastering for classic filmout as well DCI (with DSM (Digital Source Master), DCDM (Digital Cinema Distribution Master) and DCP (Digital Cinema Package), including J2K encoding, AES/RSA encryption, as well as X509 certification) do work already now on one box, with one software. That base is covered and needs no new products.

What is still missing is the "everyones tool", redcine, becoming fully functional (audio...edl... ) and stable. RC as the "swiss army knife" for those wanting to only work, not to plan new workflows is something dearly needed for many customers. Not for us, not for you - we both know how to manouever, as do many on this board, but especially for those who dont have the expertise of the early reservation holders and early adoptors.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

DCI (with DSM (Digital Source Master), DCDM (Digital Cinema Distribution Master) and DCP (Digital Cinema Package), including J2K encoding, AES/RSA encryption, as well as X509 certification) do work already now on one box, with one software. That base is covered and needs no new products.

Boy are you in for a surprise ...

 

[laguun]

Laguun,

I don't know if my tool is right for you. But I will say I intend to support EDL's directly, as well as other forms of XML besides Final Cut.

excellent - adobe & discreet, quantel and classic (elder) avids are the main issues here, and these will be good customers.

I however fail to understand why red doesnt offer the functionality you created inside of RC.

I am making some changes to improve my current Redcine workflow, but if there are no further developments extending the interoperability of Redcine, I also have trouble seeing its long term future.

I agree, and i wonder why red would want to let Redcine fade away.

Our difference is perhaps that I assume this state will continue and am mobilizing for better solutions.
IBloom

I certainly dont hope that this state will continue, anyhow on this side of the pond the manufacturers have been mobilized quite a bit - several tools, especially the from the usual german raw-centric as well rt4k uncompressed suspects have been advanced quite a bit on user request and basically only wait for .16

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

especially the from the usual german raw-centric as well rt4k uncompressed suspects have been advanced quite a bit on user request and basically only wait for .16

and the SDK

 

[laguun]

Boy are you in for a surprise ...

You are speaking in riddles, marc.

If red (and/or someone else) enters the DCI market, i would higly welcome this.
That market needs more competition and is generating 300-400 installations monthly.

But many clients dont want surprises.
They want proven inhouse tools.

And thats maybe the main difference between their and your POV - they dont care to much about future softwares and hardwares - they prefer to exactly know how to plan their 16 episodes shot on film (and maybe red) into their inhouse workflow on their (nearly) vintage NLEs, and a RC with audio and edls would be enough for them. Cutting cost and risks for the here and now is their paradigm.

 

[laguun]

and the SDK

yup, the delayed SDK as well.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

You are speaking in riddles, marc.

If red (and/or someone else) enters the DCI market, i would higly welcome this.
That market needs more competition and is generating 300-400 installations monthly.

I's not RED, but it's coming.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

They want proven inhouse tools.

And you think that is RC?

 

[laguun]

And you think that is RC?

no. i think RC is the closest red has to the "inhouse tool" so far. thats the topic of thread.

 

[laguun]

I's not RED, but it's coming.

The more competition, the better. Since the clipsters started here in berlin (...2005/6 iirc) they earned their prices back several times, and its good to have these systems here - DCI mastering can be a really complicated, and DVS sure knows how to do it.

But lets stay on topic - Redcine!
DCI is worth another thread.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

no. i think RC is the closest red has to the "inhouse tool" so far. thats the topic of thread.

okay, but you say your customers "dont care to much about future softwares and hardwares" - but you want RC to be that theoretical future solution - because you admit it is NOT currently.

I am just saying that a MUCH, MUCH better "inhouse" solution is coming from Ian in the form of a completely new CRIMSON - re-coded from the ground up.

So ... you say RC could/should be the "inhouse tool" and more.

I say ... RC will be irrelevant and NOT be the "inhouse tool". Ian has something amazing in the works that nobody else will do - because RED is simply too busy (my opinion) and everybody else is non-agnostic (obvious fact).

Iridas, DVS, Discreet, Quantel, etc are only going to create solutions to work with their own tools.

Only time will tell - best of luck with RC.

 

[laguun]

okay, but you say your customers "dont care to much about future softwares and hardwares" - but you want RC to be that theoretical future solution - because you admit it is NOT currently.

marc, its red who offer RC as the standard software for the camera. Not me. I dont "admit" missing features - i do remark what seems to be helpful for the current average users of redcine over here.

I am just saying that a MUCH, MUCH better "inhouse" solution is coming from Ian in the form of a completely new CRIMSON - re-coded from the ground up.
So ... you say RC could/should be the "inhouse tool" and more.
I say ... RC will be irrelevant and NOT be the "inhouse tool". Ian has something amazing in the works that nobody else will do - because RED is simply too busy and everybody else is non-agnostic.

If Ian will offer a better alternative to redcine - excellent. This should be a hot seller, especially after scarlet is released.

That however doesnt change the situation that the softwares which are delivered from red with the camera have room for enhancement, and i think the redcine subforum of the reduser.net website is a good place to discuss these enhancements.

Only time will tell - best of luck with RC.

If there are better alternatives on the market for RC, we will use these.
If you think that redcine is doomed, fine, time will tell - but until there *are* alternative solutions redcine if the tool for most users, including those of the current crimson. (Have to go offline now, its late over here)

 

[Maz Mawlawi]

will there be a PC version of Crimson then?

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

will there be a PC version of Crimson then?

:wink: and linux.

 

[Maz Mawlawi]

sweet! I don't ever want to deal with REDCine on a PC and honestly I'm looking forward to its demise and the rise of better options from other 3rd parties....:weight_lift:

 

[I Bloom]

will there be a PC version of Crimson then?

After 1.0 is released. Before then I can't handle the supporting two platforms.

Ian

 

[Chris Swartz]

Ian,

I think you're gonna need a staff soon.

Chris

Have you heard of sliced bread? It's pretty cool.

 

[conrad gaunt]

This won`t help those of you who need EDLs to work, but I am creating a Freeware DPX editing/SFX solution, built for those of us (but mainly me) who are not realtime in nature, but like floating point RGB lossless processing and more filters than you can imagine. I`m getting close to realising that I`m not a very professional programmer, but still.. what do I need from an editing suite..

1) Import DPX or Red data files / Generate multi-resolution Proxies in project folder etc (and possibly take some scene colour measurements along the way etc)
3) Rearrange/edit/Layer images sequences on a timeline using a GUI
3) Add a list of filters to choose and adjust (including a scripting language and linear/spline based keyframing/ zooms etc?)
4) Add colour correction curves for log<->lin / gamma etc (this bit I can`t do yet)
5) Add "Export to DPX/Tiff/RAW etc" function (done, except TIFF!)
6) Process everything using 32bit RGB floats
7) Allow generation of segmented scripts for rendering sections on seperate machines across a network

edit: 8) I forgot, histograms and a status bar that communicates (a)ffects ie, tells you when you`ve reduced DR or lost detail with a filter setting etc

If you think a program that does this is easy to write, it is (apart from getting No.4 right). Why do I say "easy", well.. Get rid of buggy QT codec crap, Direct X, Directshow, VFW, Registry entries, plugin architectures, EDL stuff and keep contact with SDKs to a minimal and just accept shaking and baking of a few high bit depth file formats, and it is..really.. I just don`t get why so many bugs turn up in so much software.

Why am I doing this?
Because I`ve gone to bed many nights expecting to wake up and review a video export, only to find, regardless of operating system, the software has failed to complete the task. I can`t even be bothered to ask why anymore, but it often seems to be H.A.L related (ie accelerated OpenGL or DirectX in origin), but who cares really, I don`t. As a result I`ve written many one-off programs simply to process a filter onto a sequence of still images reliably, even though I have Real-time software to do similar, because, here`s the rub, to me anyway, if it crashes it ain`t realtime, its just a real-waste of time. I`ve noticed, and I mean this modestly, that my little 32bit applications (click and they run), don`t crash often, and work even on vista or linux (under "wine", although I can compile for linux too). Professional software packages trying to be cutting edge often seem to have major stability issues. My philosophy is to use CPU/Memory/Disk IO and avoid relying on hardware drivers and anything not windows3.1 compatible (with win32s of course ), just let Moores Law speed things up naturally. Multithreading software is a safe optimization, works on single chip machines perfectly well too. Another reason is I find all the affordable editing solutions have lack lustre filters, so I`m gunna put all mine in a program with a GUI, and I`ll get other programmers I know involved in making sure its professional.

edit: I expect it will be most usefull to people wanting to create psychedellic effects, such as for music videos, but also good for processing timelapse material, or if your patient like me, bigger stuff. I`m finding I can read and process, then save a DPX in 1.73sec (using stop watch over 200 frames and dividing) on my single drive Dell centrino (single core etc), so I`m hoping for about 5sec per frame with several filters applied, especially with a faster disk drive or raid system.

What do I personally want from RC, stability and compatibilty, even if I`m using a five year old outdated version.
I wish Redcine would leave out the GPU stuff in favour of being reliable/stable/compatible. I`d rather go to bed, knowing my footage will bake out in ten hours, as apposed to going to bed thinking it "might" complete in 1 hour or I might spend three days repeating the process, even on a laptop without a good/current gfx card. I haven`t had this problem with RC, as it won`t run on my 2gig machine, but every other NLE system I`ve used seem to go through phases, during which they seem to take great pride in failing miserably at doing anything useful. That said, all versions of premiere and after effects are behaving for me at the moment. RC is still in its early days, but will be essential for me to get the dpx files from the r3ds into my software when my camera arrives, I can handle it from there (eventually). I`ll probably struggle to interface with the R3D directly if there isn`t a directx free pipeline available. I`ve been processing 4k image sequences for over a decade now, so I feel I know what kind of software is needed on a desktop machine to get it processed, and it has to be trustworthy for those two day exports.