The "LED" light Group Buy

[Ketch Rossi]

You make good points Blair and glad you find their build to be up to your standards, and that is saying a lot.

Now as far as the trow, here is my experience, with Soft fixtures the trow becomes secondary for a good reason, yet you still need to have enough distance trow to be bale to set the lights with a measured setting accordingly to subject illuminated and focal lens used, were with Spot HMI's I use long Focal, and with Soft lights especially Fluorescents (no more) and now LED's I tend to of course choose shorter Focal minimizing distance of camera sensor to subject and shortening the distance of the fixtures to the subject as well, yet I have found the Area 48 Soft to give a good illumination at 10' non problem and as with every soft light, the further from subject the softer and even spread the lights becomes, of course with Remote Phosphor this is different, as it makes the light over all spread even nicer and more even then others, while maintaining a true color spectrum at all power settings from 0 to 100.

To be remembered is of course that each light has its purpose and no light can do it all, if you remember you and I shooting the Promo for Garbo what seems to be a life time ago, with your R1 #19 in LA, and I used 3 LED's for that shoot, yet I also used Softboxes as those lights were very strong, yet didn't give a single shadow as this do, and didn't spread the light in a soft way but in a hard way, too hard to be ever used without a softbox, hence drastically diminishing its power output, also they were not True color as this are, yet in my opinion back then there was nothing better, now there is, its called Area 48 Soft...



As for the trow see the distance in this Green Screen set up, proving that this fixtures can handle it...

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Okay, some added info.

A: using the 5600 K media the lux count is @ 10 feet 360 if you use the Snapbox from dopchoice the lightsource will narrow up to 90 degrees instead of 160 degrees and give the approx double on the 10 feet,

C. in comparison @ 10 feet taken of the kinoflo page a Celeb 200 LED fixture ) is 16 fc@ 10 feet equal to 172 lux and a divalite 401 is equal to 28 Fc @ 10 feet = equal to 301 lux.

This shot sows 4 stacked Area 48 Soft panels in White as some Studios have this customized color to blend in their environment.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

Looks great in theory, but LED color rendering has yet to meet my idea of what looks good. We have a 1x1 panel, and we use it when necessary (when we need a small light that works with batteries and there are no other logistically practical options.) but it's a compromise in light quality I try to avoid whenever possible

They can say what they want about CRI - it can be measured and cheated in numerous ways and even when trying to be honest is misleading as a figure. To me LED just looks not so nice on skin, makes everything look like a low-budget corporate video (maybe because those guys use them all the time).

I'm sure this will improve, and from what I can tell plasma is an improvement with an LED-liek form factor and power draw - Zacuto had announced something last year that was a new kind of plasma - haven't heard anything recently about it.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Sorry Robert, but I most respectfully YET very strongly disagree!!


We have been getting fantastic results, especially on Skin and Macro shots, and with the Area 48 Soft we have at last found the perfect balance of light spread, softens, true color and high CRI, no matter what they say there is ways to test and we did test and are extremely happy, I have not used a Tungsten fixture or Fluorescent for the past two years, LED's are the future of lighting for all accounts, and they are a perfect match to High power HMI's.

 

[Bruce Allen]

Looks great in theory, but LED color rendering has yet to meet my idea of what looks good. We have a 1x1 panel, and we use it when necessary (when we need a small light that works with batteries and there are no other logistically practical options.) but it's a compromise in light quality I try to avoid whenever possible

They can say what they want about CRI - it can be measured and cheated in numerous ways and even when trying to be honest is misleading as a figure. To me LED just looks not so nice on skin, makes everything look like a low-budget corporate video (maybe because those guys use them all the time).

I'm sure this will improve, and from what I can tell plasma is an improvement with an LED-liek form factor and power draw - Zacuto had announced something last year that was a new kind of plasma - haven't heard anything recently about it.

Sorry Robert, but I most respectfully YET very strongly disagree!!

We have been getting fantastic results, especially on Skin and Macro shots, and with the Area 48 Soft we have at last found the perfect balance of light spread, softens, true color and high CRI, no matter what they say there is ways to test and we did test and are extremely happy, I have not used a Tungsten fixture or Fluorescent for the past two years, LED's are the future of lighting for all accounts, and they are a perfect match to High power HMI's.

I think I'm going to back up Ketch here, partly by disagreeing with him

There are two separate points:

1. Robert is right: CRI is a terrible way to measure color rendering. It is much beter to post the spectrum of the light, for example. Or do a better test. EG:
http://cinescopophilia.com/stop-measuring-led-lights-by-cri-and-use-tlci-instead-says-ebu/

2. Robert is also wrong: don't knock these lights just because they are LEDs. These lights are remote phosphor technology, which is much better than, say a Litepanels 1x1. Every light that I've seen that uses Remote Phosphor has actually been pretty darn good (see: Cineo... MoleLED... etc).

I propose this:

Ketch, stop talking about CRI because it doesn't mean very much. If possible, PLEASE post a graph of the light's output spectrum. I'm still waiting for that so that I can get in on this group buy.

Robert, think about buying a bunch of these lights. You'll probably like them... ESPECIALLY if you hate Litepanels 1x1 color rendering

Peace?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Antony Newman]

@Bruce: Ketch posted the spectral graphs in post #13. My 'numbers' comparison of this graph is in #104

@Robert: Plasma light is another great alternative technology with a 'bright future. It is currently 30% brighter than bright consumer LEDs (although LEDs in the lab have overtaken Plasma). The spectrum of light LEP produces goes to shorter wavelengths than the Blue of current LED phosphors (although that will change with the Intematix's recent discovery).

The problem I foresee with LEP spectral graph is the incredibly rapid fluctuations (massive peaks to troughs over neighbouring nm spectrum) - http://waytogrow.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Plasma-Spectrum.png

What the remote phosphor 'diffusers' give us is:
+) Lots of surface area - (panels do no get hot /which means they don't degrade over time /Consistent colour /25% more efficient for being cool)
+) Thick block of phosphor mixture - (which means that all the lights will have the same frequency response - unlike LEDs with phosphor on the bulb)
+) Flicker free light source.
+) The ability to upgrade to new (phosphors in the) diffusers.

Armed with a smooth extended frequency spectral response graph of one of these lights - it should be possible to invert it / and apply to the scene for even more accurate colour accuracy.I actually hope that the light manufactures of fixed K lights agree and supply 'light transformation' files for their lights that can be (proportionally) applied to the footage to make it look like the '100% Extended CRI' (or TLCI!) that the light was aiming at.

AJ

 

[Antony Newman]

Ketch,

I thought I had better summarise my understanding the buying options (mainly because I am completely new to lighting terminology)

+) Light Package includes: Light + Barndoors + Media_diffuser
---> Media Diffuser = Either 3200K or 5600K
---> Extra costs = Silver Reflective Scrim on the Barndoors

+) Optional Accessories include : Battery_Mount, Honeycomb_Snapgrid_DOPChoice, Transport_bag, Snapbag_Snapbox, 160w_power_supply
---> Battery Mount Option = V-Lock or Anton_Bower
---> Transport_Bag = 1 or 2 light capacity

NOTE: We don't yet know the price for the Snapbag_Snapbox.

EDIT: Moved AC power supply as optional accessory (thanks for the feedback Ketch)

AJ

 

[PatrickFaith]

... I asked one of the guys in the booth about throw - the LEDz were great up to about 6' and virtually gone by 10' - as even though the Area 48 is a soft source, it needs to be able to carry a decent percentage of its output at least 10' or I consider it too limited.

I noticed that the snapbox helped project the light a lot (so having the different light baffle options I think gives it the flexibility, is one of those kind of expensive must buy things).

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Bruce,

your opinion is respected, Spectral Graphs as Antony said has been posted, and talking of CRI with LED's is kind of like talking of Dynamic range with Sensors, it is really hard to measure yes, but measured must be just the same, and even some measure it in different ways, and get different numbers, one must give a number just the same, in this case, with the Area 48 Soft, it has been given very conservatively, and it has score very high, amongst the highest of any other LED fixture i the market, yet I don't push CRI, I just reply to questions about it, as to me is not important to see the specs, to me is important how the light performs, and when I first tested and then purchased the first 3 Fixtures of the Area 48 Soft, I didn't even know all the specs, but fallen in love with the light output strength yet softness and even light spread on my subjects, which in turn resulted great for skin and macro work, two very difficult things to light for.


Antony,

as said in PM, the Area 48 Soft Fixture does not include the AC Power Supply for this is priced separately on page #1, and the reason for this is because some just will never use it and only wish for Battery option, and removing the AC Power supply from the package made it even more affordable, and those that wanted it need just to add it to their order.


Patrick,

you are correct, also with the use of the Silver reflection media on the Barndoors you'll get additional illumination trow, however, with the Silver reflective screens on the Barndoors, your light will be harder to control in the spill, since it will now not only come form the horizontal spread of the source, but also move in the 4 pints in the degree of angle chosen with the actual Barndoors, so this must be kept in consideration, either you opt for the most trow and light spread, or opt for the standard Black Barndoors to better control light spill.

 

[Bruce Allen]

Oh wow - I completely missed the Spectral Graphs! Those look good!

Apologies, Ketch!

Awesome stuff. OK, put me down for one for sure.

1x 3200K Area 48 Soft + Barn Doors (black) - $1806
1x high CRI 5600K panel - $246
1x 160W power supply - $183
1x V-Lock battery plate - $224

TOTAL = $2459
WITH 20% DISCOUNT = $1967.20 plus CA sales tax and shipping

Hopefully that's right?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Great to have you on board Bruce, and this should also be a testament of how good this lights are, as we now have some serious Pros in here, and very happy to have you on board.

And yes it's right Bruce, BTW, this units to all USA costumers will ship from California.


Bruce please PM me your email so that the manufacturer can place you on the list to be contacted to place the order directly with them, thanks.


Also Group Buy discount it is now at 20% but if we do hit the 31+ Unit mark, of which we are only 9 units away, then goes to 25%, and additionally I am currently figuring out to include a similar discount for the Blue Shape Charger and V-Lcok batteries for your lights.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Maybe there is a gotcha I haven't found yet, but the phosphor media seems to resolve the issues I have had with LEDs - would need to spend some time with them to prove that out.

BTW, I don't expect any soft source to have serious carry, but if I have to march it in tight just to get a stop then it can start compromising framing choices which in my mind is the tail wagging the dog. Just give me reasonably gradual fall off from 6' out to 15' and I can deal - similar photo metrics to Kinos and it's all good.

Wish I had some cash to join in. Guess I'll have to put the arm on Bruce ;-)

Cheers - #19

 

[Bruce Allen]

Maybe there is a gotcha I haven't found yet, but the phosphor media seems to resolve the issues I have had with LEDs - would need to spend some time with them to prove that out.

BTW, I don't expect any soft source to have serious carry, but if I have to march it in tight just to get a stop then it can start compromising framing choices which in my mind is the tail wagging the dog. Just give me reasonably gradual fall off from 6' out to 15' and I can deal - similar photo metrics to Kinos and it's all good.

Wish I had some cash to join in. Guess I'll have to put the arm on Bruce ;-)

Cheers - #19

Blair, you'll be welcome to borrow mine at any time!

Or come and hang out with me at Cinegear: my plan is to strap it to my head with a battery and run around angering all the guys making LED lights with awful color rendering.

Hmm, maybe best to just borrow it.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Maybe there is a gotcha I haven't found yet, but the phosphor media seems to resolve the issues I have had with LEDs - would need to spend some time with them to prove that out.

BTW, I don't expect any soft source to have serious carry, but if I have to march it in tight just to get a stop then it can start compromising framing choices which in my mind is the tail wagging the dog. Just give me reasonably gradual fall off from 6' out to 15' and I can deal - similar photo metrics to Kinos and it's all good.

Wish I had some cash to join in. Guess I'll have to put the arm on Bruce ;-)

Cheers - #19

Blair,

you know by now and sow it first end in our Garbo shot how particular I am with lighting and the time I spend setting up properly to illuminate an area and my subjects as I envision them in my mind, and with this LED fixtures I have found a perfect compromise of distance trow vs. even illumination in a rapping soft light that gives True Color eliminating entirely the ugliness of color shifting LEDs, but again, no matter how strong this are, they are Soft fixtures nonetheless and one must make use of them accordingly, the limitations of placement for framing are in line with those of any Kino fixture of similar power output range, but this have the advantage in more ways then just their very low power consumption, potability via V-Lock or AB Gold mount Batteries, 0-100 Digital dimmer, and so on, this are LED bulbs and last you a lifetime, and wan't brake like the Fluorescent tubes.

But still can't expect them to give you the same output trow an d freedom of stop choosing and framing for Super Wides at long distances, as for that you'll need to make use of a 2 to 44 HMI Fixture with a Soft Box or reflected in order to get that, or better yet make use of my favorite HMI's the Briese...

 

[Geoffrey Weate]

Thanks Ketch (and BB&S) for putting this group buy together and allowing so much time for the informative questions and answers to be hashed out. The back and forth between you, Bruce, & Antony has been very helpful along with all the NAB first hand reports.

Count me in for TWO of the lights & accessories. Sending you a PM with my email now.

Geoff

 

[Jim Hoffman]

Still looking for a photometrics chart. Did I miss it?
Sorry if I did.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Is this what you are looking for Jim?

Any ways, this are LED fixtures provide a True Color via their Blue coating and Phosphor Media, this are at the very top of the charts in regards to color truthfulness, exacting Kelvin temperature via each Phosphor media in 3200k and 5600k respectively, were via the tool-less replacement of the Phosphor media one could have both temperatures within the same fixture in just a one minute Swap.

There is absolutely no color spills of any kind no greens no yelllows etc. perfect Skin rendition.

 

[JS Fendelander]

Would the lights work with the PAGlink batteries?

Do we have until end of day tomorrow to decide?

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Assuming standard V-mount specs are followed and the battery in question is rated to output at least 5 amps. Bonus, gotta love this, you can set the maximum draw anywhere from 5 amps to 12 amps to accommodate a lower output battery or to conserve battery life. I have to say, the apparent ability of these lights to be CT stable at widely varying levels due to the use of the phosphor modifier is a terrific asset. High efficiency with a simple switchover between daylight and tungsten. Should travel well without demanding a great deal of space - I've dragged an ARRI tungsten kit through too many airports to count and that gets old fast.

Going to look under the sofa for $2,000, what the heck ;-)....

Cheers - #19

 

[Matt Fleming]

Heya Ketch,

These look amazing...I'm in for one light & accs., thanks for your efforts setting this up!...PM sent.