The IBC betting game - realtime 2k or more out of RAW files - How many?

[reality]

I already have 4k RAW format in redcode. I want to go to an RGB format not to another raw format so I have to do yet another step to get RGB again.

 

[Obin Olson]

A little bit of a realistic pov would be nice around here.

How many of YOU have made a camera and full post support for it?

Jim must roll over in his bed with HATE at night reading some of the posts on this board, I know I would if I owned RED. SInce YOUR the customer that red wants to please how about you try and tell them what YOU want in a nice voice void of dis-trust, assumptions, and snide remarks - this goes for the entire board, not just this thread.

personaly I am sick of the negitive outlook around here, Any MAJOR Issue I have had, RED has not only fixed it asap but has gone above and beyond many many times to "make it work" for me.

Yes we need more post support, yes they are working on it. Yes problems will go away with better software. Yes the camera is still being developed. And YES even I can be blamed for some negitive comments at times. But lets give them a break!

Before now what have you been shooting? DV?
/rant over

 

[David Newman]

That might be a transcode issue because a beta DI tool I'm testing with is getting closer to 15 fps with the SDK. Maybe Cineform hasn't optimized their usage of the SDK yet?

We have heavily optimized for the R3D SDK, even more than most I imagine. Natively the first version of the SDK only used 2 cores, yet our implementation does a good job of keeping all 8-cores busy. High frame rates are achievable through the preview decode mode, that is how we acheive 30+fps for Express file generation. If there is way to make the SDK run at 15fps at 4K, I'm all ears. Currently I believe that will not be acheivable on today's PC without turning the demosaic filter off and getting a native RAW decode much like Scratch uses. Looking forward to the next rev. of the SDK.

 

[reality]

Thanks for the perspective check, Obin.
Everytime I get on Reduser, I get annoyed at all the
childish whining and go away for a while.

 

[Mark Crabtree]

Obin,

I'm not sure if you are also directing that "rant" at me. I have always felt this forum's greatest purpose was to get at the truth. To allow this community to explore the pros and the cons with the goal of making Red better. If it were just a fan boy site then our posts would be pointless. Really, who doesn't acknowledge Red as a great accomplishment and almost a godsend to those of us still harboring a dream of making an independent film. But the Red workflow is a serious impediment to it's acceptance by top post facilities. Red has said that providing a route to RAW in the SDK is going to happen at some future time. I am just here to plead with them to make it sooner than later. I do such a volume of work on tight deadlines that I have only two choices: Buy Scratch or use the CineForm proxies. I'd much rather be making CineForm RAW 4K at 12FPS than being forced to make CineForm 444 4K at 2 FPS. I agree that we ask a lot from Red. But we are all in this together as we have all invested a great deal of time and money and have staked our reputations on Red being the way of the future. I just want a realistic workflow to be a reality today. I took delivery of Red number 100 on October 19th of last year. Almost a year ago. But Friday I shot VariCam because my post deadline was too tight for the Red workflow and my resources available. Of course I could have rendered all weekend, but many of my shoots are shoot in the morning and edit in the afternoon. And I also try to have a life.

 

[Ariana]

Shoot in the morning, transcode to cineform in 4k, an edit in the afternoon and then render cineform to 4k with a full debayer in the evening?

 

[Bruce Allen]

SInce YOUR the customer that red wants to please how about you try and tell them what YOU want in a nice voice void of dis-trust, assumptions, and snide remarks - this goes for the entire board, not just this thread.

Red knows what we want. It is prominently advertised in their workflow diagram on Red.com.

That little arrow pointing from RedCine -> Avid.

All I am waiting for is for the *already advertised* workflow to work properly.

If they don't like us complaining about it, they shouldn't advertise it.

Or put a little asterisk star next to the arrow that says "BETA".

Not whining. Good night!

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Martin Tlaskal]

Maybe:
Filmlight

I would love to see who signed up for the SDK.

Filmlight will be showing Red conform / decode natively in the timeline, with UI allowing adjustment of pretty much all the Metadata. It isn't realtime yet and is only on a Mac at this stage, as a Linux SDK doesn't exist yet.

-Martin

 

[laguun]

The RED one is awesome, and it is important for any owner/user to see it being supported widely in the post industry.

That RED locked out all but 2 mid-class players from supporting the red one and the redcode raw jpeg2000 for over one year caused lots of headshacking and postproduction problems. Luckily, this era is ending now.

Its not the alpha or beta stadium which is problematic and raising concern.
The *direct* access to the raw data is still missing in the SDK, and this still prevents many products with functionality well above the level of scratch or fcp to work in their full speed.

After not being told early on in the beginning openly that >90% of the high-end DI systems would be locked out for at least a year intentionally, it is easily understandable that several posters here want to be informed if also in the future only 2 manufacturers will get full support and access to the raw files.

It is important to know for any investion if the direct raw access is still locked out as a situation planned to last, or is it only due to ongoing negotiations/lack of R&D ressources.

The frustrations expressed here are, to be precise, just the tip of the iceberg - as most poster (and i include myself) are *strong* supporters of red.

The real problems are the unemotional voices which you dont read here. Highly experienced post-veterans colorist who vote against red, well-known elder avid editing-stars sweating or producers simply ruling out red "as the camera is fine, but its not compatible with anything".

One cant send those to reduser.net.

On the bright side, *if* a fast decrypted but not decoded raw file access and audio is added to the SDK, most problems will be solved. It would be highly appreciated if someone of red would clearly lay out the plans for the SDK, not a precise timetable, but simply confirming that full raw-access on file base will be blocked or allowed.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

personaly I am sick of the negitive outlook around here, Any MAJOR Issue I have had, RED has not only fixed it asap but has gone above and beyond many many times to "make it work" for me.

Yup. Lot's of whining babies banging spoons on high-chairs.

This web forum is a case study on developing a disruptive technology in the open, under the watching eyes of the public.

I sincerely doubt, any other company will ever have the balls to do what Jim decided to do (develop in the open) after spending a little time here.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

The real problems are the unemotional voices which you dont read here. Highly experienced post-veterans colorist who vote against red, well-known elder avid editing-stars sweating or producers simply ruling out red "as the camera is fine, but its not compatible with anything".

One cant send those to reduser.net.

Send 'em to me. I'll show them the light. I do it everyday.

 

[laguun]

Send 'em to me. I'll show them the light. I do it everyday.

You dont have the necessary equipment - or does offhollywood offer 4K projection, 4k realtime colorcorrection or 4K filmrecording in house? The houses who do complain mostly do.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

You dont have the necessary equipment - or does offhollywood offer 4K projection, 4k realtime colorcorrection or 4K filmrecording in house? The houses who do complain mostly do.

Your post said - "well-known elder avid editing-stars sweating or producers" - not "houses".

And we certainly have the necessary equipment to satisfy Hollywood studios and major television networks. Doing it right now. As for 4K projection - well ... that's coming when we finish construction.

As for 4K film-out - I now offer that through Deluxe.

I am realtime in 2K from 4K raw files - there's a LONG LIST of heavy iron shops that don't do 4k realtime color-correction. Plenty of "big name colorists" happy to work in 2K. But I think you and Luki have beat this subject to death.

Ask Stefan Sonnenfeld if he needs 4K realtime to make Tony Scott happy.

Right now, there are much better things for me to do with capital than buy a film recorder. But with the right contract I'd go there - but I'd rather just buy more Epics.

 

[Mark Crabtree]

Mark,

My guess is that 99 percent of Red owners do not own Scratch. When the SDK allows acces to RAW, it will be possible to edit 4k on the desktop for only a small investment in CineForm software. Asking for this to be available ASAP in the SDK does not make us whinning babies.

 

[laguun]

Your post said - "well-known elder avid editing-stars sweating or producers" - not "houses".

And we certainly have the necessary equipment to satisfy Hollywood studios and major television networks. Doing it right now. As for 4K projection - well ... that's coming when we finish construction.

As for 4K film-out - I now offer that through Deluxe.

I am realtime in 2K from 4K raw files - there's a LONG LIST of heavy iron shops that don't do 4k realtime color-correction. Plenty of "big name colorists" happy to work in 2K. But I think you and Luki have beat this subject to death.

Ask Stefan Sonnenfeld if he needs 4K realtime to make Tony Scott happy.

Right now, there are much better things for me to do with capital than buy a film recorder. But with the right contract I'd go there - but I'd rather just buy more Epics.

I understand.
However try to understand our daily business as well.

Last week we had to make 270 distribution copies, 35mm, 4K.

The avid editor and the filmlight colorists had to be instructed step by step, as usual. And once more, that was the main irritation and insecurity for director and producer in a besides that flawless production.

We can manage that. You can.

But it would be *much* better if we wouldnt have to guard every single new red-user/client. They can go on wrong workflows very easily today, and they often want or need to use their own infrastructure.

It gives many people a, sadly valid, reason to badmouth red. You and i know how to solve the issues. They dont. Other simply dont want or cant to invest the additional money or time.

And i agree with you: Investing in a filmrecorder 2008 is on the edge (if you dont have already 5,6,7,8...). And most of the film-out houses, easily >95%, use different equipment than scratch and final cut pro. At least here in Germany, its filmlight, dvs, iridas, discreet and quantel everywhere.

I do like the additional business, as we often deliver to them now, but they, for logical reason, want to use their own gear and many have gone to an anti-red attitude, only for business purposes. Or even worse, damage the pictures ("send us Quicktime 8bit... the ´other´ red codec cant be loaded...).

I dont think that they will endanger or stop reds success. But they can and do slow it down quite a bit, at least on this side of the atlantic.

Its also important to understand that people like us or bruce and and you are on the same side: Pro-Red. The problems and issues he or we here have to deal with are real. It makes no sense at all to deny this. Red needs stronger, better and faster postproduction support than the existing solutions, and red cant do everything on their own.

Therefore its of vital interest to any red user to see red being supported widely, not only in niches, and that implies that the mayor players need direct raw-access.

 

[Lucas Wilson]

The avid editor and the filmlight colorists had to be instructed step by step, as usual.

Editors and colorists being resistant to new technology and having to be instructed on its use?? I don't believe that at all!!!!

(fond memories of the early days of HD...)

Lucas

 

[laguun]

Editors and colorists being resistant to new technology and having to be instructed on its use?? I don't believe that at all!!!!

(fond memories of the early days of HD...)

Lucas

hrrhrr, yes indeed, its always fun

however in this scenario we have to deal with another additional mutation: The people who already have new digital technology (as in 4k recorder/di/display) up and running perfectly with mechanical/film sources - and are limited in fully using digital sources from the red. Therefore these usually pro-digital folks suddenly go pro-mechanics or pro hdcam. In fact we see lots of redraw to hdcam playout (as final master for DI) demand, especially from series.

 

[Bruce Allen]

Yup. Lot's of whining babies banging spoons on high-chairs.

You mean people asking for the workflow advertised on Red.com to actually work in practice?

I respect you, but calling people "whining babies banging spoons on high-chairs" is just childish fanboy BS.

I like you guys and Luki and PlasterCity, but that doesn't change the fact that RedCine needs to work properly. That arrow advertised on the workflow page (sans Beta disclaimers) needs to actually work. Or they should remove it from advertising until it does. Maybe they'll get DNxHD and sound working next week. If so, great. But currently it is deceptive advertising.

This web forum is a case study on developing a disruptive technology in the open, under the watching eyes of the public.

No, it's a case study in people complaining that they can't do all the things that RED advertises they can.

You and others say "give them a break, it's Beta or Alpha"

But most companies don't advertise Beta or Alpha features on their workflow page without very clear disclaimers.

I sincerely doubt, any other company will ever have the balls to do what Jim decided to do (develop in the open) after spending a little time here.

I think it's working out quite well for them, and I'm sure more will.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[laguun]

I respect you, but calling people "whining babies banging spoons on high-chairs" is just childish fanboy BS.

I sadly have to agree.

No, it's a case study in people complaining that they can't do all the things that RED advertises they can.

I want to underline that we (and probably you as well) are strongly pro-red. The problem is that many people arent. And these people have to be won over.

It shouldnt be that
- the excellent quality of the red is spoiled (because people are converting to *any* format just to get a workflow, and be it 8bit SD, or mastering from tape formats)
- producers turn down red (because the tape/filmless workflow is to slow and to expensive with *their* production partners or own gear)
- that the most popular and most powerful postproduction studios *and* systems are locked out (or forced to go with smaller systems)

Letting the other fine international postproduction companies support red is really the missing link.

I think it's working out quite well for them, and I'm sure more will.

Originally Posted by Offhollywood
I sincerely doubt, any other company will ever have the balls to do what Jim decided to do (develop in the open) after spending a little time here.
I think it's working out quite well for them, and I'm sure more will.
Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

I agree with Bruce. red got tons of feedback and supporters - in fact others as element technica, viewfactor etc successfully are following the same process with open development already.

Its highly important (and an invaluable asset) for red to understand its customers market better and more precise.

And thats for sure - many people are not satisfied at all with the existing workflow. That has nothing to do with negative bias, in the opposite. At least here.

We are looking forward to Adobe support, even when its late, we fully understand that there have been delays and quality issues in manufacturing - but we must make clear that a broad post support is essential in order to transmit the real horsepower of the red one to the street, and that requires that others can access the redcode jpeg2000 raw.

 

[M Most]

I respect you, but calling people "whining babies banging spoons on high-chairs" is just childish fanboy BS.

Well, Mark can be rather blunt at times. Probably one of the reasons we get along quite well..

You and others say "give them a break, it's Beta or Alpha"

But most companies don't advertise Beta or Alpha features on their workflow page without very clear disclaimers.

I think at least part of Mark's point was that identifying something as Alpha or Beta IS a disclaimer. My point was that it's only a disclaimer if the buyer/reader understands what Alpha and Beta actually mean.