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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

The Horror of dead pixels

Mike
If that is the case then concerns about
1. dead pixels and whether or not they can be masked
2. warranty issues related to sensor failure
are probably pretty good questions.
 
tj williams said:
......What to do about not white spots: Could be dust so clean sensor with special swabs! If cleaining does not remove it, Nikon cameras have a feature "dust reference photo" where you take a white picture and command the camera to mask from adjoining pixels. Then the camera should show no pixels dead unless there are too many at one location.

All this said what does this mean about RED Sensor?

1. Many of us will be shooting for theatrical projection from a 4K sensor. Thus we are shooting for playback on 60" HD tvs and Theatre digital projection from a sensor about 1/2 the pixels of most SLR sensors. Reasonably we will see unmasked "dead" pixels more easily than most SLR users.

2. RED Mysterium may or may not be mask enabled like the Nikon this is now unknown. If this was anticipated by RED design team, which is a reasonable assumption then the masking may be more effective than Nikon.

3. RED Cine may also provide a means of masking "dead" pixels.

4. Mysterium may be especially un-suseptable to this phenomenum. In SLRs it is not clear how common it is and what the causes are since most users do not do work which exposes this problem. Nikon Canon etc. of course do not publish any information on failures rates. It may also be that RAW conversion and output software contains some masking or smearing capability.

3. Probable costs of replacement sensor in an SLR are about $500/600 range so we should assume mysterium will be less since it is made interchangeable and SLR cameras require quite a process to change the sensor.
Click to expand...
Nice thread ...

I'd say,in-camera firmware, as you've mentioned - "dust reference photo" makes a lot of sense, otherwise you'd continually need to do it in REDCINE just for that camera. Best do it at the source cos as you go down stream everything get muddied and I'm sure the process would be more error prone. However that would not help in your friend's situation, where it was discovered after footage was shot. So I guess you'd also want a REDCINE 'post' solution.

To protect it's brand, of a product..well... that hasn't launched yet, I'd think RED would have a pretty aggressive warranty returns policy. But hey, we don't even know what the pixel failure rate in the field will be yet! I'd feel better if in the first six months, this feature isn't on the camera cos it'd mean that RED doesn't have a reason to think pixels might blow.
Cheers,
DF
 
When talk first started circulating about this camera and it's price, I remember being literally amazed that anyone was talking about producing a sensor of this spec for anywhere near that price, never mind a complete body...

$10,000, as Stephen says, would be a bargain by any standards.
 
You hav’n a laugh….aren’t ya boys.

$17,500…….RED One Camera (RED unit price)
$10,000…….Mysterium Sensor (Sony parts price)

DF
 
david farland said:
You hav’n a laugh….aren’t ya boys.

$17,500…….RED One Camera (RED unit price)
$10,000…….Mysterium Sensor (Sony parts price)

DF
Click to expand...

Hi David,

Rememer Jim is fairly wealthy, he does not need to show a profit in his first year trading. He might be more interested in a large market share and then let the profits flow in later.

Have you by any chance heard of Microsoft? If you look back a few years you will notice their operating system was 1/4 of IBM's, it worked out OK for Bill Gates.

Stephen
 
Sorry... I thought you guys we just havin' a laugh at TJ......silly me

Jim and co. may make a lot of money in the future….they deserve it for their vision, risk taking, genius, hard work..blah blah blah…and for simply making the world a better place..

….however I don't think he's going to begin by over inflating the replacement price of his defect flagship item!

Cheers,
DF

ps: saw your web site…love your pictures!
 
Red are offering us a great camera at a knock down price.

I do not wish to discuss red busines plans but i have read enough to know that the cost to produce the red one for $17,500 is in all probability significantly above $17,500 to produce at 1,000 units.

Red now have around 1500 units to produce. I will be pleased for them if they manage another 1500 in the next 12 months.

It does not matter to me one hoot how much profit or loss they make.

I am very confident that once those first 100 units are out in the field we will all be jammed into this forum searching for every ounce of feedback.

The amazing thing about Jim Jannard is that "he cares a lot about his camera" how it is built and how well it works out in the field. I have no doubts he will provide us with a great product and a great service back up.

We have heard from others who jumped in to be an early user on a particular camera and regretted it! Red will ensure that early beilievers will never regret getting in early with him and his goals.

I wonder how many hours a day these guys are putting in though:biggrin:

Mike the beginner
 
Hi Mike/stephen
So I called a Nikon repair depot new Nikon 10mpixel sensor installed costs $225 exact quote>

of course they make many more of these than Mysteriums. even so 10K seems hi to me. Of course if that is right, an who knows? then the post about the life of sensor, the warranty of the sensor, the means of masking dead pixels in the camera. is even more relevant to our costs as operators.
I hope RED folk will chime in to explain some of this prior to NAB
 
IMO - the RED team has got to be very busy putting together all the final details .. the final spec's have not been released , the camera probably is finished but the firmware probably still getting tuned ... i've noticed many questions on the boards really are geared toward a released camera ...
prices will be released shortly and by NAB all other details will be released ...
i don't think RED has time to chime in very much in these final days/weeks as we all know when we have a deadline coming up things change day to day ..

RED is creating a camera with unmatched spec's let alone the price..
i think we'll be very pleased with warranty/service etc when they release the info which we all know will be by NAB ...
 
david farland said:
….however I don't think he's going to begin by over inflating the replacement price of his defect flagship item!

Cheers,
DF

!
Click to expand...

Hi David,

There was a time when Sony would replace a sensor free of charge because their sensors did not have dead pixels!

Stephen
 
donatello.... I see your point 30 posts and no one from RED wants to talk about the Mysterium pixels/warranty etc. ...... Guess it's gonna stay, well, a mystery until NAB...
 
I know with the Arri D20 that there is no way to repair pixel blemishes in camera (based on pixel location / size / color). Not sure exactly how it works, but the An update needs to be sent to the factory and then re-loaded into the camera.
We have recently done a pixel blemish compensation on a Panasonic HDX-900 and the way Panasonic allows you to repair lit pixels (and store the corrections in memory) is quite user friendly and much easier than Sony IMHO.
FWIW

BBroz
 
tj williams said:
donatello.... I see your point 30 posts and no one from RED wants to talk about the Mysterium pixels/warranty etc. ...... Guess it's gonna stay, well, a mystery until NAB...
Click to expand...

I think Dontello is spot on with what he said. RED has a lot on their plate as they sprint down the home stretch to NAB. Their staff is understandably busy. The RED shipping schedule has been confirmed. NAB just five weeks away. The tech specs for RED One have undoubtedly been locked in, but not published yet. 30 posts, 300 posts, 3,000 posts, or 3 million posts is not going to get them to release specs until they are ready. Peppering them with multiple threads and requests for exact specs won't force them to answer you. For the past 15 months RED has been unbelievably good and refreshingly open when it comes to sharing their thoughts and taking suggestions. They've shown that they pay close attention to details. Their team is undoubtedly aware of tech issues with camera systems, like the dead/dropped pixels subject of this thread. Let's just give them some breathing room and exercise a little patience until NAB.
 
Hi Gibby

Compared to Sony Panasonic etc. The RED folk are completely open and have published far more data about the upcoming camera and have listened more to users by a wide margin.

Peppering them with multiple threads and requests for exact specs won't force them to answer you.
Click to expand...

That seems a little harsh to me... From my point of view asking questions about potential problems, about features we want, about ways of approaching work flow, about literally hundreds of concerns, from all of us who have asked a lot of pretty good questions provides the RED team with valuable feedback. As a designer I'd think that various problems brought up and discussed would be of much more help than a bunch of fan flattery.
 
We have 1000 problems to solve... make no mistake that this is an undertaking of epic proportions. We had an incredible day yesterday. A big celebration of passing a major hurdle. But we still have a lot to do in a very short period of time. We will post prices on Monday. We will be at NAB with a working camera. We will show 4K REDCODE footage on a 4k Projector at NAB. We will try to ship the 1st cameras very near to the NAB timeframe. We have great announcements at NAB. But trust me... this is the most difficult task I have ever been associated with. And I LIKE IT.

Jim
 
As it relates to dead pixels... every sensor has dead pixels. And every RED sensor has a dead pixel map with dead pixel correction. No RED sensor will have dead columns or dead rows. If there is any way to see dead pixels in the footage... it is rejected. Dead pixels are not acceptable in RED footage. Period. If you receive a camera and see dead pixels in your footage, we will fix it. I would not accept a camera that had dead pixels and neither should you.

Jim
 
tj williams said:
Hi Gibby

That seems a little harsh to me... From my point of view asking questions about potential problems, about features we want, about ways of approaching work flow, about literally hundreds of concerns, from all of us who have asked a lot of pretty good questions provides the RED team with valuable feedback. As a designer I'd think that various problems brought up and discussed would be of much more help than a bunch of fan flattery.
Click to expand...

I’m exactly the wrong guy to make that comment to. Since December 2005 I’ve posted more RED questions, suggestions, and feedback than almost anyone on the planet - from day one of the establishment of RED User in December 2006, and day one of the establishment of the DVX User RED Forum (December 2005), and the DV Info Net RED Forum (December 2005). My RED forum posting totals on the three RED forums since December 2005 are as follows:

Red User = 273 posts
DVX RED User Forum = 502 posts
DV Info RED Forum = 320 posts
Total RED forum posts for me = 1095

As posted on forum member lists, your posting totals on RED forums are:

RED User = 210 posts
DVX RED User = 1 post
DV Info RED Forum = 0 posts (not a member)
Total RED forum posts for you = 211

In addition, I volunteered thousands of hours out of my busy production schedule to be a moderator for the DVX User RED Forum and the DV Info RED Forum for several months in 2006, until my production schedule caused me to give up being a moderator for those RED forums.

Summary
If the publicly available RED forum member lists are correct, you are a relative newcomer to the process of giving online tech suggestions to the RED Team. Those records show that you were never a member of the DV Info RED forum, only gave one RED-oriented post to the DVX User RED forum in it’s year-long existence, and now since mid-January of this year you have posted 210 posts on this RED User forum. In contrast, I joined all three RED forums as soon as they were formed, DVX User and DV Info in December 2005, and RED User in December 2006, and I have posted 1095 RED-oriented posts. In my RED forum posts you will find literally hundreds of camera feature suggestions, concerns, and feedback that I submitted to RED – including hundreds of posts I made long before you ever started posting on RED forums. In my post #34 of this thread I said that the RED Team “is undoubtedly aware of the tech issues with camera systems, like the dead/dropped pixel subject of this thread”. In Jim’s post #37 that followed, he verified exactly that. In my post #34 I mentioned how busy the RED Team must be as they finish up the camera and get ready to ship it. In Jim’s post #36 he confirmed just that.

As I’ve itemized, I’ve been posting suggestions to RED since they announced their camera system – long before you started posting suggestions to them. Making a statement to me like you did is simply singing to the choir. All this said, each member of the RED forums and reservers of RED cameras, are important contributors on this forum and others. RED has always welcomed the posting of suggestions, criticisms, and concerns. I think everyone’s input has been valuable to the RED development process – yours included. Except for one DVX User RED Forum post you made in mid-2006, your input to RED started late in the RED One development process. You started posting on RED User in mid-January, about six weeks ago. Better late than never, but starting to make suggestions and voice concerns at such a late date in RED’s development and suggestion cycle means that 1) Many of your suggestions/concerns have already been suggested by others over the past 15 months (search tool will verify) 2) suggestions at the 11th hour may not be able to be incorporated in the camera. 3) some respect for those who have contributed to the suggestion/concern process from the very beginning should be given by newcomers. At this point the camera system specs have undoubtedly been locked down. I think RED has been really thorough in listening to input and paying attention to details. I don’t expect a perfect camera system, that’s an impossibility. I do expect a well-engineered, high-quality camera system, and I feel that is what will be delivered.


-------------------------------------------------


We all look forward to getting our RED cameras and plugging them into our workspaces. There are many questions about RED cameras that will only be answered by using them on the set or on location. I’m convinced that RED has been thorough in the development of the RED camera system. I felt they would be, thus I reserved my RED cameras and lenses early in the development cycle. I think you have some very good real world production experience, and your suggestions/concerns shed some important light on many issues. If you’re at NAB I’ll look forward to meeting you and chatting in person. We’re all part of the overall RED family of adopters. That’s some good common ground…
 
Gibby said:
We’re all part of the overall RED family of adopters. That’s some good common ground…
Click to expand...

Good post Gibby. At this late date is there are a lot of people just getting interested who don't know the history you posted. Anyone with a RED reservation under 350 or so signed up in the first month a year ago. I know I called the first day and am still way down at #141.

Since then RED has been unbelievable at taking hundreds, perhaps thousands of suggestions from many experienced people. It's not quite an open source project, but it's probably as close as anything like this could ever get. It's one reason I'm so confident RED will completely kick-ass.

No one has cause to criticize the RED team's desire to listen and implement as much as reasonably possible within their price point. Yeah - call me a fanboy, but it is because I've been watching and posting a lot regarding design ideas way back when and have seen many of those ideas implemented. But will the kitchen sink be in RED too? Maybe. :weight_lift:
 
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