The death of film???

[Brandon Freeman]

The big problem with that idea is you really don't have a movie that can be projected well in comparison to originating on RED. So you take part of your sales potential away. It's just not that much more money to shoot RED - well in a year from now it won't be when you can easily rent one.

I think distributors understand that - or will - when evaluating product. A great story trumps everything else. But if that's great then why wouldn't you want in on RED.

Small cameras will remain better for most Docs.

Sure, but I'm talking filmmakers that are shooting to DVD and going that route (another viable distribution path).

However, yes, if a film is going to get funding for a film that is going to theaters, the cost of a RED is nothing.

 

[red1225]

then it seems we can put a date on film's death. that is, when all the old school holdouts actually die and no one knows or can tell the difference between film and digital cinema. it's already happened in the still photography field so motion picture film would only naturally follow. the fact is that it could disappear tomorrow and audiences wouldn't know or care. so it will probably take another generation or so before it becomes more of an artifact than the dynamic medium it is today.

Don't mistake your ignorance of the film medium and market with the extinction of it...

It's obvious you've not had much experience in big budget features and television.

If I live to be 70...film will be around for another 30 years as I will always opt for it (professionally) before any other medium.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

Don't make the mistake of assuming that only older shooters want to shoot film and only younger shooters want to shoot digital. I run into beginners, young film students, etc. all the time who have a passion for shooting film. And I run into seasoned pros all the time who are very excited by the new digital technologies.

 

[oldphart]

...

If I live to be 70...film will be around for another 30 years as I will always opt for it (professionally) before any other medium.

Hmm - 30 years ago I bought a Sancorscope anamorphic. Have not used it for quite some time now. The Bolex has been in retirement for a long time. I was happily shooting stills with a 6x6cm Rolleiflex and a 35mm Exacta. Neither has been in use for years, even though I really like my 20mm Flektogon.

You will probably be able to get 35mm film 30 years from now, but it will be an expensive product for those with special interests. 8mm disappeared quickly when video was still quite shabby. 16mm is likely to be gone in a few years. I have made diapositives on glass plates. The quality was excellent, but I do not see them around these days.

 

[Rob Powell]

The example you give is hardlined EFP. With it's ability to genlock, 12 volt auxiliary power bus, RS232, dual link HD-SDI, B4 HD lens usage capability, RED One can be readily adapted to a hardlined EFP scenario, though there are some workarounds needed in the field and post.

Non-hardlined EFP programs are far and away the huge majority of network television programs produced worldwide, and that is the type of program that RED One can be adapted to the easiest. The cameras don't have to be genlocked together, or there is just one camera, plus the program gets edited in post, thus the time to grade color, and incorporate footage and LUT's into an NLE.

I don't really disagree with you, but my points relate to the original concept that RED will kill HD anytime soon. You have to admit that the current configuration of RED is not the most user-friendly for hardlined EFP. Sony definitely has a leg up.

Secondly, having edited for HGTV and other similar networks, the budgets for many of the non-cinematic broadcast shows (and there are a lot of them) simply won't support a long post process. The waters are still muddy, but it appears the color grading of RED footage entails a significant time commitment. (This may not be the case in the long haul.) If so, SD/HD workflows are still going to be a viable alternative for some programming despite the image quality disadvantages. I.e. HD still lives as a reasonable alternative.

RA Post

 

[red1225]

Hmm - 30 years ago I bought a Sancorscope anamorphic. Have not used it for quite some time now. The Bolex has been in retirement for a long time. I was happily shooting stills with a 6x6cm Rolleiflex and a 35mm Exacta. Neither has been in use for years, even though I really like my 20mm Flektogon.

You will probably be able to get 35mm film 30 years from now, but it will be an expensive product for those with special interests. 8mm disappeared quickly when video was still quite shabby. 16mm is likely to be gone in a few years. I have made diapositives on glass plates. The quality was excellent, but I do not see them around these days.

You must live in the country.

Super 8 made a come back a few years ago and 16mm usage has been on the rise too (hence the new 416). Every feature I work on still shoots 35mm film...come to think of it every tv show too.

Medium format still photography has also make a comeback. (All major magazines still require there cover photos and big story photos be shot on film)

Just because you jumped on the video bandwagon early on and abandoned film usage dosen't mean it disapeared.

It dosen't really matter. Film is here to stay.

 

[Steve Gibby]

You have to admit that the current configuration of RED is not the most user-friendly for hardlined EFP. Sony definitely has a leg up.

RED One has the circuits, features, and busses to integrate into a hardlined EFP scenario, but yes, there are some workarounds involved, at least for now. I do agree with you that traditional manufacturers servicing that industry have a leg up on RED One - for now. That said, even in hardlined EFP production scenarios there are quite often non-hardlined cinematic B-roll cameras that rove around and get cinematic footage for the truck to roll into the program. RED One should be very useful for that.

Secondly, having edited for HGTV and other similar networks, the budgets for many of the non-cinematic broadcast shows (and there are a lot of them) simply won't support a long post process. The waters are still muddy, but it appears the color grading of RED footage entails a significant time commitment. (This may not be the case in the long haul.) If so, SD/HD workflows are still going to be a viable alternative for some programming despite the image quality disadvantages. I.e. HD still lives as a reasonable alternative.

Time is money. The more compact, yet creatively productive post can be, the better, when it comes to budget-challenged productions. I've had to produce/direct/shoot/edit a ton of those types of shows, and it's always a mantra of: "Maximize technology while also minimizing overhead". In tight turnaround shows, a lot of time spent grading footage will kill meeting deadlines. You just named a scenario where being able to shoot 1080p RGB, where footage values are baked in, is preferrable in many cases. If the shows don't have a tight turnaround, but rather deliver in 3 or 4 weeks after acquisition, that is where a RED One shooting RAW can shine. In that type of non-hardlined EFP program you'll then have the time to load, grade, select, bin up, cut, polish, and master the show without a deadline breathing down your neck.

 

[Rodrigo Lizana]

As someone stated on a previous post, camera packages aren´t the biggest item in a film production budget but they sure are a primary tool to get the job done. It´s just like tires in motocross racing. Not the biggest expense but one that plays an important role. If the race matters, sure I want to have the best tires available.
Many times, in 35mm and 16mm productions the lighting package is more expensive than the camera one. We rent 35mm and HD cameras all the time and HD has not touched film in rental numbers. It has found its own space in productions that otherwise would have stayed on paper .
What about Red hit on HD rentals...well I don´t have a Red one to rent for the moment. As for my own personal projects I´m going to be doing them on film as long as its overall image quality (at least for me) remains undefeated. As for the market, I´m planning to offer many kind of tires for many different races...

 

[red1225]

As someone stated on a previous post, camera packages aren´t the biggest item in a film production budget but they sure are a primary tool to get the job done. It´s just like tires in motocross racing. Not the biggest expense but one that plays an important role. If the race matters, sure I want to have the best tires available.
Many times, in 35mm and 16mm productions the lighting package is more expensive than the camera one. We rent 35mm and HD cameras all the time and HD has not touched film in rental numbers. It has found its own space in productions that otherwise would have stayed on paper .
What about Red hit on HD rentals...well I don´t have a Red one to rent for the moment. As for my own personal projects I´m going to be doing them on film as long as its overall image quality (at least for me) remains undefeated. As for the market, I´m planning to offer many kind of tires for many different races...

BRAVO!!!

 

[Columbus]

You must live in the country.

Super 8 made a come back a few years ago and 16mm usage has been on the rise too (hence the new 416). Every feature I work on still shoots 35mm film...come to think of it every tv show too.

Medium format still photography has also make a comeback. (All major magazines still require there cover photos and big story photos be shot on film)

Just because you jumped on the video bandwagon early on and abandoned film usage dosen't mean it disapeared.

It dosen't really matter. Film is here to stay.

It's simply not true, most of the major fashion photographers shoot with high res digital backs, Glen Luchford, Mert & Marcus, Nick Knight. If you look in any major fashion magazine, V magazine, ID, 10 you will find a lot of the stories are shot digitally.

 

[red1225]

It's simply not true, most of the major fashion photographers shoot with high res digital backs, Glen Luchford, Mert & Marcus, Nick Knight. If you look in any major fashion magazine, V magazine, ID, 10 you will find a lot of the stories are shot digitally.

Sure...maybe in London...NOT NYC.

It simply is true. Sorry pal.

 

[donatello b]

film will be around for quite awhile ...
however it will not be around here (in my freezer) for long - as soon as i pick up my RED - all those 35/16mm cores & super 8 kodachrome film is out of here ... and my wife can't wait for RED so she can have the freezer back !!

i'm finished shooting film for my personal projects ... tired of waiting for 2k scans .. tired of having them redone .. tired of dust ...tired of tiny scratches here & there ... tired of being tired of it all ....

 

[Craig W. Bickerstaff]

I never realized that film was stored in freezers.

 

[Ramesh Jai]

I think these 'RED vs HD' and 'Film is dead' debates have been over done.. let it rest. RED is going to bring to life a whole new breed of film makers. Wish we could leave it at that.

 

[Ramesh Jai]

I never realized that film was stored in freezers.

Only if the wife's cooking is bad.

 

[Columbus]

I'm afraid we will have to agree to disagree, for example october 07 issue of W magazine, (probably the biggest US magazine next to US Vogue) one of the main stories is shot digitally by Mert & Marcus. check link http://www.style.com/w/feat_story/091107

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

Sure...maybe in London...NOT NYC.

It simply is true. Sorry pal.

Ahhhhhh...... beg to differ. Digital dominates large format film in NYC fashion.

 

[mezmo]

RED4K possible killed 16(s16)mm film...
But we have also 35/65/70mm :biggrin:

Super 16 scaned to 2K DPX is cool and a totally different
look to Red. A High Speed Arri SR can run up to 150fps
no problem. I'm cetainly not getting rid of mine.
I'm looking at Red as another choice for certain projects,
not to replace anything.
I just don't understand this endlees debate.
Mezmo

 

[Rob Powell]

I'm looking at Red as another choice for certain projects,
not to replace anything.
I just don't understand this endlees debate.

Amen.

Like many of you, we work in a variety of formats and mediums. Why people insist on closing the door to certain ones is a mystery. My father-in-law always says "the right tool for the right job." RED is a great tool, but it DOES have limitations. So does film. Let's keep a lot of tools available. We don't have to kill film or HD to convince ourselves that buying RED was a good choice.

RA Post

 

[kmikami]

To answer the original question, I don't think that HD is dead. How many films are finished with a 2k DI? And 1080p delivery formats are just getting started. How many 4k projectors and monitors exist in the country at the moment?

Just as a thought experiment, if a camera came out tomorrow that was everything Red is but only shot 1080p and cost $2000, you can bet that there will be a million indie productions shot with it. Or if there were a new camera that only did 2k but far outperformed the Red in dynamic range I'm sure many productions would adopt that format.