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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

The Day of Understatements... (RED primes)

One thing I would never argue with Jim is pricing.

Are the RPPs going to have some sort of Infra Red coating on them?
 
Jannard said:
There seems to be an underlying assumption that the RPPs can't be as good (or better) in every way to an MP... and somehow the price makes that OK. That's the assumption I'm referring to that you might reconsider.

Jim
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And rember kids you can always soften up an image a lot easier then you can sharpen one. lol
 
Shawn,

If your talking about purchase price: Cooke is a smaller operation for one, and secondly the S4 construction is a little more complicated than most of the UPs.

if your talking about rental price; Cooke's are in demand, and depending on the market can be harder to get a hold of.

_mike


Shawn Nelson said:
Coming from digital/DSLR world, I'm at a disadvantage in this realm.

What's so great about T2 Cooke S4s that makes them more expensive than Zeiss T1.9 UP or T1.3 SS?

Second, is there a cheat-sheet somewhere that goes through these lenses so I can be up to speed for NAB?
Click to expand...
 
Super excited for these lenses!
However, I probably wont buy them for fear of a saturated market.
wont get money back on them.. plus can probably rent a set super cheap off craigslist.
Non the less! im excited to use them
 
Jannard said:
There seems to be an underlying assumption that the RPPs can't be as good (or better) in every way to an MP... and somehow the price makes that OK. That's the assumption I'm referring to that you might reconsider.

Jim
Click to expand...

i did read about red, saw red, i bought.
my life changed.
i do read about rpp, will see them, and buy.
no more renting.

10x more expensive doesnt mean 10 times better.period
 
Zakaree Sandberg said:
Super excited for these lenses!
However, I probably wont buy them for fear of a saturated market.
wont get money back on them.. plus can probably rent a set super cheap off craigslist.
Non the less! im excited to use them
Click to expand...

and now think about the guys who bought 20 year + old lenses for 40k 3 months ago, who doesnt even cover a 32mm image circle
 
Mike Prevette said:
(see: British automobiles)
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As much as I love the look of a Jaguar and a Land Rover, and as much as they are getting better: :thumbsup:

Mike Prevette said:
Also judging how "good" a lens is is so subjective. I think you will only start to change peoples minds once you get these in peoples hands (ie mine) One quick way to help fight the battle is to post more pictures of them. . .
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But keep in mind that there is a lot of people lining up to take a bite off the cake he baked with R1 and DSMC, and the other digitals. He said a lot... he put a cap on price and doesn't seem to be budging on that. He told us so much about their performance. He showed a few teaser samples. He gave us some specs.

We have to wait for it to become a reality. If he doesn't poise himself rather fantastically then the company will suffer, and if it does the fun will have an end point. We wouldn't want that.

Zakaree Sandberg said:
Super excited for these lenses!
However, I probably wont buy them for fear of a saturated market.
wont get money back on them.. plus can probably rent a set super cheap off craigslist.
Non the less! im excited to use them
Click to expand...

hehe... I hope you are right, then I can rent mine from somewhere a bit more trust worthy for $100+ more. Owner operators will be a whole new breed. :beer:
 
Zakaree Sandberg said:
Super excited for these lenses!
However, I probably wont buy them for fear of a saturated market.
wont get money back on them.. plus can probably rent a set super cheap off craigslist.
Non the less! im excited to use them
Click to expand...

I think people are going to start packaging REDs with RPPs. This is why I am going to buy them, plus this is the first time that I would own a real set of glass of my own. It's a great feeling and it's worth more than what RED is charging.
 
Deanan said:
Grading, WB, etc. will most of the time override lens tint anyway. Before DI's became so prevalent, it did make sense but it's not as applicable when you're manipulating the color in so many ways now.
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True! But I'd like to think and I do feel that there's a small difference there even with DI. Maybe it doesn't matter anymore but I'm a great believer in making as much in camera as possible. For example, there's a difference between breaking the beams of light with a chocolate filter then trying to CC it afterwards. That chocolate filter "dirties" the look in a way that's not IMO replicable afterwards, simply because the glass of the filter does something to the light and the color does something to the colors of the image as it blends before it hits the sensor.

As a young DP I used to put the black promist in afterwards when we telecined. Simply because we felt uncomfortable to do so in camera. I did this to "soften" the image a little but eventually realized that I was doing so from the negative and therefor reversed the effect and instead of softening the highlights we were softening the blacks. Now this may be a bad example, but I think you get my point in some ways.

Now characteristics has nothing to do with new lenses, because you need to make your lenses as good as possible. So having that fight is in some ways meaningless - Im trying to say that concerning that Im not on anyones side - this will be choices of preference if you're in that luxurious seat of being able to choose.

BUT I DO BELIEVE THAT what you choose (and dare) to do in camera does make a difference. That's why you choose your DP, because of the choices he makes to create the image you strive for. Otherwise you could hire anyone.
 
Julian Banos said:
I think people are going to start packaging REDs with RPPs. This is why I am going to buy them, plus this is the first time that I would own a real set of glass of my own. It's a great feeling and it's worth more than what RED is charging.
Click to expand...

I just think there will be a lot of glass out there. renting for realllllyyy cheap. thats all. people are trying to make money back on their gear when there are 1000 other people in the same area trying to do the same thing. competition= lower rates

Im coming off sounding like these lenses are a bad thing.. they are an AMAZING thing. And i am really excited for them.
I will buy them when i have the money.. but with the expectation of NOT really making my money back on them
 
You know, if you put a Cooke S4 on a lens projector and then an Ultra Prime, it doesn't look good for the Cooke. If this is the only metric used then the Cooke appears to be an inferior lens. But it isn't. There are a lot of other aspects to the design and look of the Cooke thaty cannot be measured on a lens projector, and these are the reasons that people really love these lenses and stand in line for six months to pay top dollar for them.

I'm happy to bring lenses to the REDuser party and put them up on a lens projector. But if anyone uses this as the sole test for what lens is "better" than another then they are missing many important parts of the puzzle.

That said, I am looking forward to the SALT tests in a month or so. And next week and especially next Wednesday is gonna be more fun then a barrel of monkeys. But don't anyone fool yourself into jumping to early conclusions from any of it.
 
Mike Prevette said:
Shawn,

If your talking about purchase price: Cooke is a smaller operation for one, and secondly the S4 construction is a little more complicated than most of the UPs.

if your talking about rental price; Cooke's are in demand, and depending on the market can be harder to get a hold of.

_mike
Click to expand...

Thanks Mike, but what is this "look" of S4s that people talke about?

Put differently, if I line up 3 Reds configured exactly the same with one having a Cooke S4 50mm @ T2.8, Zeiss UP 50mm @ T2.8 and a Zeiss SS 50mm @ T2.8... could anyone but the most astute lens tech tell a diff?
 
weirdcrew said:
BUT I DO BELIEVE THAT what you choose (and dare) to do in camera does make a difference. That's why you choose your DP, because of the choices he makes to create the image you strive for. Otherwise you could hire anyone.
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I am with you man. You are making SO many decisions that are irreversible on set anyway. If you arrive with no vision you are creamed one way or an other. If you feel incredibly strong about something then it is also nice to be able to throw it in there. If you don't out of creative control then more power to you, on the other hand, if you don't out of fear, then you have much bigger problems anyway.
 
Well just based on my experience, The UP will have the highest contrast therefore will appear "sharper"*. The Cooke will have the smoothest out of focus (OOF) areas with the least amount of radial deformation, but will be a little lower contrast and warmer than the UP, it has a "creamier" look. The super speed will look outdated compared to the others IMHO. The OOF will have a little distortion as you rack focus. The Iris probably won't be perfectly spherical so you will see "edges" around any pinpoint light source or specular highlight in the background. They will also be a little warm in tone and contrast is pretty low.


*perceived sharpness is different than MTF


This happened to me just last week, I did a job with the UP's and in the recent weeks I had done one Cooke job and one Super speed job. I was really actually shocked when I put the UP on and could notice the difference in the prep. I didn't do side by sides, but my eye instantly saw some resolving differences. it is noticable


Shawn Nelson said:
Thanks Mike, but what is this "look" of S4s that people talke about?

Put differently, if I line up 3 Reds configured exactly the same with one having a Cooke S4 50mm @ T2.8, Zeiss UP 50mm @ T2.8 and a Zeiss SS 50mm @ T2.8... could anyone but the most astute lens tech tell a diff?
Click to expand...
 
Shawn Nelson said:
Thanks Mike, but what is this "look" of S4s that people talke about?

Put differently, if I line up 3 Reds configured exactly the same with one having a Cooke S4 50mm @ T2.8, Zeiss UP 50mm @ T2.8 and a Zeiss SS 50mm @ T2.8... could anyone but the most astute lens tech tell a diff?
Click to expand...

Yes :beer:

They all look very different and it would be very easy to see. The difference might not be as important today as it used to be but it's there.

Only real thing is to drive to a rental house and look for yourself to test for what you want to rent. As I said it's all about preference.

I believe there were some really nice lens tests made in the good old days that you could find in the forum? That will show the different lenses? I'm really bad at searching so maybe someone like Sanjin :cool: can step in?

Other aspects to take in consideration is - what do I need for my shoot? Light weight and small, but resolution/ sharpness is not as important - I'd go super speeds and so on.
 
Mitch Gross said:
You know, if you put a Cooke S4 on a lens projector and then an Ultra Prime, it doesn't look good for the Cooke. If this is the only metric used then the Cooke appears to be an inferior lens. But it isn't. There are a lot of other aspects to the design and look of the Cooke thaty cannot be measured on a lens projector, and these are the reasons that people really love these lenses and stand in line for six months to pay top dollar for them.
Click to expand...


Mitch, with all due respect, Cooke S4 was crafted predominantly for film media and it is where it looks so good.
World is changing, 4K look is coming. And many people that were in love with the film a like feel and look have change of heart once they are exposed to the 4K look.
Also 4K is like cmeleon, not only because of post but because it has multiple personality.

Andrew
 
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