The curious case of the missing files...

[Chris Santucci]

I recently worked on a commercial job shot on Red that somehow suffered from a half day of files "missing." As in - they couldn't be found even after supposedly being backed up from Red drives.

I spoke to a buddy of mine who tells me that this unexplainable missing files scenario has been somewhat of an "issue" on Red projects and in fact, apparently a major commercial production company has an "Absolutely No Red" policy.

I'm a little concerned because I'm planning on using Red on a large commercial project in the near future and now considering other options.

Is this a real problem? If so, what are people doing about it?

.

 

[NateWeaver]

Sounds like a case of somebody not knowing what they're doing copying the camera drives off. Files just don't go "missing". The camera generates them, and there's lots of places where, if somebody is not careful, they can not get copied or get copied incorrectly.

There's also a way to have the camera in timelapse mode and hitting the record button simply records a one frame file. I've been bitten by this and have seen others do it as well. This is not the camera misbehaving, it's user error.

Everything about your anecdote points to user error, one way or the other.

 

[Greg M]

Two years shooting on Red and I have never had footage go "missing"...that's just absurd!
We typically call this operator error.

If so, what are people doing about it?

Never hiring the idiot that lost the footage.

 

[D Fuller]

There is an old film production story about a producer who, when he interviewed ACs, asked them if they had ever flashed a mag. He would never hire an AC who said no. When asked why, the producer said, "Everybody flashes a mag sometime in their career. I just don't want it to be on my shoot."

 

[Sam Winzar]

R3D Data Manager is your friend.

http://r3ddata.com/

 

[Greg M]

There is an old film production story about a producer who, when he interviewed ACs, asked them if they had ever flashed a mag. He would never hire an AC who said no. When asked why, the producer said, "Everybody flashes a mag sometime in their career. I just don't want it to be on my shoot."

backing up data and flashing a mag are not even remotely the same thing. When you back up data, your job is to verify. If you didnt verify, you didnt do your job...if you lose footage more than once you should consider a new line of work.

 

[jimhare]

As in - they couldn't be found even after supposedly being backed up from Red drives.

You mean they copied them from the Red Drive and then lost the copy?

This definitely sounds like user error. I copied the wrong files once, and lost some data, but I have the guts to take responsibility for it and not blame the camera!

Nothing wrong with the Red, I have worked with hundreds of hours of footage and it's rock solid.

 

[Greg M]

I think he is implying that the files just disappeared...as in because they are Red files they dont stick.

 

[jimhare]

Either way doesn't really make sense.

 

[Cail Young]

Guys, I just heard from some mates of mine that were shooting on an F900; apparently the heads on the ingest HDCAM-SR deck at the post house were a bit out of line, and the original camera tape is now torn to shreds... I've heard this is an "issue" with HDCAMSR shoots, and one commercial house I know has an "absolutely no videotape" policy.

I'm a little concerned because I was planning to use the F35 on a feature but now I'm not sure I can trust the whole tape workflow.

Joking aside, these two situations are about as likely as each other to happen if you have people who know what they're doing working on your shoot.

Yes, data can go missing, but about as often as HDCAM decks grind tapes, or mags get flashed at the lab, or any of the myriad things that can go wrong do.

The difference is you don't employ an inexperienced novice to handle your mags or tapes at the lab. Same on set with RED - if you aren't willing to use someone who understands it's more than just drag and drop, then yes, of course it's a dangerous medium to work with. But no more than any other in the hands of novices.

 

[D Fuller]

backing up data and flashing a mag are not even remotely the same thing. When you back up data, your job is to verify. If you didnt verify, you didnt do your job...if you lose footage more than once you should consider a new line of work.

And that is how they are, indeed, pretty much the same thing. The point of the little story (badly told as I look at it today) is exactly that "if you lose footage more than once you should consider a new line of work" but that losing it once will have a far more lasting impression on you than sailing smoothly through 20 projects.

 

[jimhare]

Well said Cail!

Jim

Guys, I just heard from some mates of mine that were shooting on an F900; apparently the heads on the ingest HDCAM-SR deck at the post house were a bit out of line, and the original camera tape is now torn to shreds... I've heard this is an "issue" with HDCAMSR shoots, and one commercial house I know has an "absolutely no videotape" policy.

I'm a little concerned because I was planning to use the F35 on a feature but now I'm not sure I can trust the whole tape workflow.

Joking aside, these two situations are about as likely as each other to happen if you have people who know what they're doing working on your shoot.

Yes, data can go missing, but about as often as HDCAM decks grind tapes, or mags get flashed at the lab, or any of the myriad things that can go wrong do.

The difference is you don't employ an inexperienced novice to handle your mags or tapes at the lab. Same on set with RED - if you aren't willing to use someone who understands it's more than just drag and drop, then yes, of course it's a dangerous medium to work with. But no more than any other in the hands of novices.

 

[Chris Santucci]

You mean they copied them from the Red Drive and then lost the copy?

This definitely sounds like user error. I copied the wrong files once, and lost some data, but I have the guts to take responsibility for it and not blame the camera!

Nothing wrong with the Red, I have worked with hundreds of hours of footage and it's rock solid.

I wish I knew how the media manager was backing up the files, but I don't. My initial thought was that obviously it was human error, but then, as I mentioned, a buddy of mine tells me this "problem" is not uncommon.

Now, I'm starting to think this "problem" really is a case of common human error.

.

 

[Greg M]

I wish I knew how the media manager was backing up the files, but I don't. My initial thought was that obviously it was human error, but then, as I mentioned, a buddy of mine tells me this "problem" is not uncommon.

Now, I'm starting to think this "problem" really is a case of common human error.

.

I dont know about "common" human error.
Chris, understand the Red just creates data...just like any computer creates files. These files are copied to another storage medium for back-up. The suggestion that they just mysteriously disappear because they originated from a Red camera is absurd.

 

[Chris Santucci]

I dont know about "common" human error.
Chris, understand the Red just creates data...just like any computer creates files. These files are copied to another storage medium for back-up. The suggestion that they just mysteriously disappear because they originated from a Red camera is absurd.

What I meant (and thought I concluded) was, it sounds more likely that it's a case of improper procedure which I feel is "common" in cases such as this where loss occurs. I know very well of the process involved in backing up files, by the way.

But since I hadn't been there, like RIGHT there when the supposed data managers lost data, I don't know if there's some anomaly inherent with Red that might be causing a problem or if it really was just a big fail on the part of the personnel (much more likely).

.

 

[jimhare]

I wish I knew how the media manager was backing up the files, but I don't. My initial thought was that obviously it was human error, but then, as I mentioned, a buddy of mine tells me this "problem" is not uncommon.

Now, I'm starting to think this "problem" really is a case of common human error.

.

It is extremely uncommon, as in almost non-existent. For me, I have lost MUCH more on tape than Red.

I have only lost one Red shoot, and it was on the road at 2a.m. in a hotel room when I copied the wrong set of files and erased the drive. In my sleep deprived state I could have just as easily mislabeled a tape or left it on top of the microwave.

If this happened today I could use RedUndead to try to retrieve them.

Like anything, it's about developing a fool-proof process.

It's unfortunate that Red has an unfounded reputation of being difficult to work with or unreliable.

Like anything, you need to learn it, understand it, play to its strengths and work around or avoid its weaknesses.

I had a $150,000 Sonic Solutions high end DVD authoring suite that was buggy as Hell, but still the best damn thing out there. You just had to know how to get the most of it.

This is nothing compared to that!

 

[Kevin Olsen]

could they have been stolen?

 

[Greg M]

could they have been stolen?

I have heard of this happening, Arri Ninjas (no relation to 4K Ninjas), come in while the crew is at crafty and steal Red footage from drives and wipe out any evidence of foul play.

 

[Steven Caesare]

Jim is actually a member of the IMF.

That's the only way to exaplain .R3Ds that self-destruct even after being copied.

As usual... the Secretary will disavow any knowledge of your actions....

-sc

 

[Nir Shelter]

OK ENOUGH!!

So the guy made a comment few here appreciated, drilling him senseless is not productive to anyone.

A fellow DIT told me of a job on which he copied over the media and could not find the files in the destination folders. Yet the HDD displayed the correct amount of space less. He with the help of a friend managed to get into the hidden files on his Mac all the "lost" files were there. Not sure how to access the hidden files or what they are there for. But may be worth while checking those next time or there equivalent on a PC as this sounds like an OS or operator error to me.

Don't let one incident put you off Red. Nothing is for sure except tax and death this rule applies to data as well. Like with all types of media it has a certain risk involved and part of our job is to manage that risk and bring it down to a bare minimum.

I'll save you the details of my work flow and checking stages. But basically have a GOOD work flow and thorough procedure to follow to ensure all data is safely backed up follow it and that risk drops tremendously. Perhaps even have yourself a checklist for the first few times of using a new procedure and make sure all boxes are ticked before formatting media.

Good luck.