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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

The big question...

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Finner said:
If it is the case that 300's are changed to T-stops in the future I for one would not want one of the early model F-stop versions.
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I would, in fact, I have one of the first 300mm primes coming to use on my RED #8 camera for nature and sports shooting. I'll be setting exposure via RED's integrated histogram and zebra displayed on the EVF and LCD, thus whether the lens is marked in T stops or F stops is not an issue to me. I will also be shooting 4k REDCODE RAW and 2K REDCODE RAW almost exclusively when I use the 300 prime, with the added ability to tweak exposure (and other parameters) with REDCINE before sending the footage to post. Mobile shooting focus will be via use of RED's Magic Focus function with the EVF and LCD. Thus whether a lens is marked in T stops or F stops is really not that relevant to my field and pre-post workflow.

I'll happily look forward to receiving my RED 300mm prime with RED #8 - no matter what it is marked in.
 
Gibby said:
I'll happily look forward to receiving my RED 300mm prime with RED #8 - no matter what it is marked in.
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I understand that completely Gibby. The only reason I would not want the f-stop model if things change to T is that 5-10 years if I decide to sell it I suspect the T-stop version would sell for a higher price. So my investment in the lense would be better protected.

Beatniq, from what I have experienced all glass has some light loss.
 
Finner said:
I understand that completely Gibby. The only reason I would not want the f-stop model if things change to T is that 5-10 years if I decide to sell it I suspect the T-stop version would sell for a higher price. So my investment in the lense would be better protected.
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I understand that. Assuming the lens checks out well, I don't think I'll be selling it down the road. I tend to hang onto the good lenses in my kits.

There are also vast numbers of still photographers out there who are used to using F stops in their photography, a significant number of them are now converging into digital cinema work, and RED One's technology is extremely similar to the DSLRs those photographers are used to using. Thus IMO the demand for T stop lenses will be strong among traditional film industry cinematographers, but those converging to RED One from the still photography, television, and video production industries will certainly not be demanding T stop lenses - and IMO almost all of them will be using the field workflow I outlined in my last post to set exposure, thus T stops will not be a priority for them. In view of this, I don't think used F stop RED lenses will bring any lower price than T stop RED lenses because there will be a significant demand for F stop lenses from RED users whose background has been still photography, television, and video production (all of which traditionally use F stop lenses), and they'll set exposure and focus using RED's electronic features. Traditional film camera workflow guys are only one segment of the demographic of RED One adopters, and if they're comfortable with a T stops/hand-held meters/tape measures workflow, fine, they should go that way, but if others from traditional electronics based industries (DSLR, TV, video) seek to use RED One in a different workflow, and without a need for T stops, IMO that's fine too.
 
It all really becomes speculation at this point. The main key I've seen is the great images we have seen shot with the 300 so any way you slice it there is a lot of value there right off the bat.
 
Finner said:
The main key I've seen is the great images we have seen shot with the 300 so any way you slice it there is a lot of value there right off the bat.
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Oh yeah...the images I've seen from the 300mm, projected at 4k, looked excellent. For nature and sports shooting, I've also checked with Schneider about their PL to PL 2x, which would make the 300mm f2.8 a 600mm f5.6, a cool lens setup for full sunlight nature and sports shooting.

I'll shoot some nature and sports footage with the 300mm on RED #8 before the L.A. tests of #8, and bring the footage to the testing sessions for analysis by the testing team.
 
Gibby said:
I'll shoot some nature and sports footage with the 300mm on RED #8 before the L.A. tests of #8, and bring the footage to the testing sessions for analysis by the testing team.
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If it is the testing event at Cinegear June 21-24, Gibby so you gave us an idea that
SHIPPING COULD START ALMOST FROM MONDAY ON!!!!!!!!!!!! HURRRAAAAA!!!!!!!!
 
i thought the T issue was solved.. but granted the pushing still carried on, finner.. i'd say you cine-like people are :cold:

your reminders are there to prove it..
 
The Third Man said:
If it is the testing event at Cinegear June 21-24, Gibby so you gave us an idea that
SHIPPING COULD START ALMOST FROM MONDAY ON!!!!!!!!!!!! HURRRAAAAA!!!!!!!!
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Oh no...it is the testing of my RED #8 by a team of professionals after I receive the camera. I've posted several times on RED User about those upcoming testing sessions. It has nothing to do with Cinegear. Details of the testing of RED #8 will be released in the future, after I receive a confirmation of the shipping date for #8 - something I have not received yet.

A very diverse and experienced team has been assembled to test #8. Their names will be released before the testing sessions.
 
Nanohv said:
What will be the maximum ISO/ASA that Red One can go up to?
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Well,that's a little like asking how much salt to put in your food -- how high an effective ASA you wish to rate it depends on how much noise you can live with. The signal is recorded RAW, so in theory, there's no gain boosting until post, so I assume that any selected ASA ratings are applied to the RAW recording when processing them using REDCINE (I could be wrong on this point and there is some sort of selectable gain boosting to the signal before recording/compression). So in theory you could rate the camera at 6000 ASA if you wanted to but you may find the noise level to be unacceptable. I don't know what the preset ASA ratings will be offered in the camera.

Until the camera comes out, I don't think any of us will know how far it can be pushed in terms of underexposure. The rough sensitivity of the sensor is in the 250-320 ASA range probably, although ASA is only a general concept when it comes to digital photography (truth is that it's not written in stone when shooting on film either.)
 
I've heard several times over the last six or eight months to expect around 250 asa.
If it responds the way I suspect it will you should be able to get 800 to 1000 asa without a too much noise. Keep in mind that noise like grain is in the eye of the beholder so we will have to wait and see.
Aloha
-A
 
I'm sure the base sensitivity of the sensors are similar, it's just that a DSLR allows you to boost the captured image to higher ASA ratings. Just because you can select 1000 ASA on your DSLR doesn't mean that the sensor is that sensitive.
 
Pushing

Pushing

If you have an intimate interior scene with mostly tighter frames you should be able to "push" the exposure quite a bit in post without it being too objectionable. Part of the reason I believe this is due to audiences being pre-conditioned to a certain amount of grain in darker scenes since they have often been shot with faster stocks on film.

I think the bigger issue is in wider shots where the texture of the digital noise with its more regular patterns starts to compete with high contrast edges, rectilinear shapes and other details. It will be interesting to see what kind of new image processing options develop for "sweetening" the digitally acquired material more intelligently than existing solutions.

IMHO RAW source data (like the RedOne generates) maniputated by high caliber post tools designed with an understanding of the strengths and weaknesses of the format will open up amazing creative opportunities.

These new workflows will fundamentally change currently defined roles for everyone from the DoP to the colorist to the post sup. Boon, or nightmare...
 
I'd imagine that any user selectable ASA setting would only change the LUT used to inform the 'default (but ultimately changeable)' display of the image..

There may be some justification in looking at a camera like Canon's 1d(s)mrk 2 as a way of trying to understanding how RED might work..

Outside of a studio and shooting at speed I might like to rate the Canon at 200-400asa. This is a stop or two up from the 'base' stop of 100asa. This is a way of offering myself highlight recovery of at least that stop or two. Especially with motion I'd be willing to live with the tiny amount of noise you end up with in the shadows as a consequence.. With the canon if you choose to shoot at 50 then you end up with reduced dynamic range. This helps us realise the importance of optical ND filters..

I'd recommend playing with a camera like the 1d(s) mrk 2 or similar as a way of starting to get a handle on raw acquisition...

Michael

ps I would be interested in if there can be any tweaking or boosting done to the signal in the analogue domain (I imagine slightly less likely with a CMOS chip??)
 
I believe the ASA setting in D-DLRs, and I assume the Red too, changes the gain of the A/Ds, rather that boosting the signal in the digital domain – that is best left for post.
 
Without doing any side-by-side tests, all one can say is that both cameras produce nice 4K pictures.

The Dalsa footage shows a very wide dynamic range, whereas we have not seen footage from the RED camera with its final dynamic range in place, just the Peter Jackson footage, which shows a nice range but (just by eye and by memory) not quite as wide as what I've seen in the Dalsa tests shot in full sunlight.

But memory of two different screenings of two wildly different footages is not really scientifically accurate.

I suspect both cameras will deliver a dynamic range that people will like, both can be timed to match the other. The Dalsa may or may not have the edge on total dynamic range, but that's simply a guess based on the fact that it is a 16-bit recording. I wouldn't waste too much time thinking about it until the RED camera is delivered.

Even in film stocks, we have narrow, wide, and very wide dynamic range stocks, and for some people, the normal stocks are already plenty wide in range, while others prefer the narrow or super-wide range stocks.
 
I did not notice much noise difference bettween the 2 cameras but that I feel the cameras would have to be tested side by sideat different asa settings to be able to judge properly. Both cameras looks are incredibly clean though. As far as dynamic range goes right now dalsa is out front by a bit but specs are not finalized with red yet and they may creep closer to 12 as I have a feeling that is something they are striving for.

My guess is the dalsa will probably have slightly better dynamic range in the end but this would not out weigh the con of needing a team of sherpas to haul the camera around. I don't think you could shoot the interior of a car with a dalsa?
 
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