The big choice: Epic S35 or FF35...

[Stephen Pruitt]

And here's the math:

For us, with two R1s now, there would be the options:

1. Upgrade both R1s with the Mysterium-X chip. I'm assuming those upgrades will run $5000 each. Total: $10,000

2. Purchase one Scarlet FF35 with the Monstro, sell one R1, and upgrade the other one. Assume that Scarlet accessories to run the Scarlet cost $10,000. Total out-of-pocket cost: $15,800. (Assumes we will be able to sell the other R1 for $10,000.)

3. Trade one R1 in for an Epic FF35, purchase $10,000 worth of accessories, and then upgrade the other R1 with the Mysterium-X chip. Total out-of-pocket cost: $32,500.

4. Trade in both R1s for two Epics, each with $10,000 in accessories. Total out-of-pocket costs: $55,000.

For me, the crucial question then becomes, as noted above, how good REDCode 42 looks compared to REDCode 225 and how well a Monstro cuts with a Mysterium-X.

IF the visual, screen difference between REDCode 225 and REDCode 42 is negligible, I'm certain which way we'll go: Option 2 is the clear winner. We'd use the Scarlet as the A camera and the R1 for the B camera and for the specialty shots such as slow motion.

Am I nuts for thinking this way? Or what?

Stephen

 

[Steve Sherrick]

This thread is too funny. Lots of wild claims on cameras that have not even been produced in any form that we know of other than a render. I think Red will deliver on these new modular designs and I do believe they will be huge improvement over Red One. But all of this back and forth about Mysterium X and Monstro, two technologies that no one outside the walls of Red have ever seen, is quite amusing. Don't take this next statement as a diss to Red because it is far from it. Wouldn't it be better to declare Red One dead once we have seen what exactly those 13+ stops look like? Jim has been very excited about it, so I believe they have made huge advances and dynamic range will be one of them, but until we all get to do our tests like we did with Red One, it seems kind of premature to get into these kind of debates.

I'm sure some of the feedback is useful to Red, but some of it (not just this thread, many others) have been vicious, to the point where it's starting to get tough to read the forum these days. In the right hands, Red One is producing amazing images. Dynamic range may not be as much as some want, but man, for a first generation camera, it has a lot going for it. I put all my chips on Red. I still believe it was the right move because I like the images it produces compared to most other cameras available in similar price ranges.

I will assess the upgrade possibilities when the cameras are real and I can see them in action. Specs are less important to me these days. I have to be able to make informed decisions so I can keep a business plan intact.

 

[Jason Ing]

IF the visual, screen difference between REDCode 225 and REDCode 42 is negligible...

Does it come down to Redcode? What about the visual difference between 11 and 13 stops? The visual difference between two sensors might be saying the visual difference between to films. That's a big IF. And there are a lot of X factors in those prices. But I get what you're saying. I might think about it again too.

 

[Jason Ing]

This thread is too funny. Lots of wild claims on cameras that have not even been produced in any form that we know of other than a render. I think Red will deliver on these new modular designs and I do believe they will be huge improvement over Red One. But all of this back and forth about Mysterium X and Monstro, two technologies that no one outside the walls of Red have ever seen, is quite amusing. Don't take this next statement as a diss to Red because it is far from it. Wouldn't it be better to declare Red One dead once we have seen what exactly those 13+ stops look like? Jim has been very excited about it, so I believe they have made huge advances and dynamic range will be one of them, but until we all get to do our tests like we did with Red One, it seems kind of premature to get into these kind of debates.

I'm sure some of the feedback is useful to Red, but some of it (not just this thread, many others) have been vicious, to the point where it's starting to get tough to read the forum these days. In the right hands, Red One is producing amazing images. Dynamic range may not be as much as some want, but man, for a first generation camera, it has a lot going for it. I put all my chips on Red. I still believe it was the right move because I like the images it produces compared to most other cameras available in similar price ranges.

I will assess the upgrade possibilities when the cameras are real and I can see them in action. Specs are less important to me these days. I have to be able to make informed decisions so I can keep a business plan intact.

Didn't you ever shake your holiday presents way before you got to open them?

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Didn't you ever shake your holiday presents way before you got to open them?

I'm one that likes to be surprised. My wife on the other hand still goes looking to see where I've hid the gifts ahead of time.

It's all good. Everyone can have their discussions. I just think it's kind of funny. I suppose we all kind of did this when Red was first announced. Although at that point, we didn't have all these options to talk about. It was more focused on what that one camera would be.

 

[david farland]

Yep, we've gone as far as we can on all of this.

It's Jim's turn to post...!

Dave

 

[Joseph Ward]

I agree with you. Maybe, people think they would save $2K?

Scarlet FF35(Monstro) - Scarlet S35(Mysterium X) = $5K Sensor Difference
Then, Epic S35(Mysterium X)$28K + $5k(Sensor Difference)= Epic S35 Monstro $33K
Now,
Epic FF35 Monstro= $35K -
Epic S35 Monstro= $33K = $2K

And here's the math: 1. I'm assuming those upgrades will run $5000 each. Stephen

Ok? If Sensor upgrade cost $5K for whatever Sensor Generation?

RedOne $17,500 + $5K(Monstro)= $22,500
Or RedOne $17,500 + $5K(Mysterium X)= $22,500 + $5K(Monstro)= $27,500 +(for whatever Sensor Generation upgrades after) ?

 

[Jason Ing]

I'm one that likes to be surprised. My wife on the other hand still goes looking to see where I've hid the gifts ahead of time.

It's all good. Everyone can have their discussions. I just think it's kind of funny. I suppose we all kind of did this when Red was first announced. Although at that point, we didn't have all these options to talk about. It was more focused on what that one camera would be.

I get what you're saying, though.

Can you imagine that this is going to go on for an entire year?

I think that's why Jim announced it so "early".

So he can tease people for another year and shake things up for the fun of it.

Some billionaires buy sports teams.

This billionaire tries to corner a market, shakes up big boy competitors, and creates thousands of fans for himself.

 

[Tom Lowe]

And here's the math:

For us, with two R1s now, there would be the options:

1. Upgrade both R1s with the Mysterium-X chip. I'm assuming those upgrades will run $5000 each. Total: $10,000

2. Purchase one Scarlet FF35 with the Monstro, sell one R1, and upgrade the other one. Assume that Scarlet accessories to run the Scarlet cost $10,000. Total out-of-pocket cost: $15,800. (Assumes we will be able to sell the other R1 for $10,000.)

3. Trade one R1 in for an Epic FF35, purchase $10,000 worth of accessories, and then upgrade the other R1 with the Mysterium-X chip. Total out-of-pocket cost: $32,500.

4. Trade in both R1s for two Epics, each with $10,000 in accessories. Total out-of-pocket costs: $55,000.

For me, the crucial question then becomes, as noted above, how good REDCode 42 looks compared to REDCode 225 and how well a Monstro cuts with a Mysterium-X.

IF the visual, screen difference between REDCode 225 and REDCode 42 is negligible, I'm certain which way we'll go: Option 2 is the clear winner. We'd use the Scarlet as the A camera and the R1 for the B camera and for the specialty shots such as slow motion.

Am I nuts for thinking this way? Or what?

Stephen

5. Sell both R1s for 16K each x 2 = $32K and buy one Epic FF35.

How are you figuring 10K for a R1? Anyone wanting an Epic will buy it off you for 16K so they can save a grand. Why not.

 

[Todd M.]

Then I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one. I can see where people may think they want an S35 Monstro version. But I fail to see what it would actually offer except for a potentially lower price at the expense of less sensor area. And I'm willing to bet that the cost savings would be minimal or even none at all.

Even for those who plan to keep PL mounted glass on their EPIC 99% of the time, the FF35 size still makes the most sense for shooting anamorphics and other FX work. Custom frame sizes would theoretically allow for portrait oriented shooting without turning the camera on its side.

Perhaps I'm just confused as to why the desire for S35 Monstro. The only reason I think is that people are requesting it under the assumption that it may save a few $$ instead of paying a full $7K more for the FF35 Monstro over the S35 Mysterium-X model. And I believe that reasoning to be flawed.

Thankfully someone has some sense on this board.

 

[Emanuel A.]

used market

used market

5. Sell both R1s for 16K each x 2 = $32K and buy one Epic FF35.

How are you figuring 10K for a R1? Anyone wanting an Epic will buy it off you for 16K so they can save a grand. Why not.

I'm afraid to warn you this won't work it out like that. Take a glance on this info [ LINK ] .

 

[conrad gaunt]

Another thing to consider is that, unless there's options to lower the data rate (which I'm sure there will), Epic run at 225MB/sec, which is over 6 times more than Redcode36. At this rate, a RED Drive with 320GB gives you about 22 minutes of footage, and a 16GB card... 67sec. This is without counting the transcode time, the storage needed, etc..

I'm not saying this is a bad thing, but those are things that needs to be taken into consideration as well.

I agree. Once my image problems are sorted on my Red (which I increasingly think is caused by a fault with my specific hardware and is getting sent back), rc36, and even rc28 could be seen as a R1 asset, at least I do, and certainly for a while.

If we could get raw R3D trimming and output from Redcine/RedAlert, the archiving advantage is great between rc225 and rc28-36.

It could be the difference between backing up on some future high capacity "highly reliable" flash memory drive, or just a regular drive. I know which I'd rather trust my data to, and long term digital archiving is still unknown territory IMO, but i think others too.

I think I'm getting over THE LACK OF CpU UpGrade, er sorry, last time, and less concerned about the R1 killers.
I can always place a scarlet inside my R1s body and then remove the lens, OLPF and sensor. sorry . definately last one
" TrYiNg To AdJuSt :wink:"YOU ARE NOT OBSOLETE" :
"YOU ARE NOT OBSOLETE"
..Aaarrrggghh.. must stay strong,.. " inch:

irate: - It ain't so bad, you gibbering land luva. Nothing a spot of rum can't fix, you vibrating pile of bio-luminescent jellyfish sick!

As Spike Milligan once said, "I'd rather have a bottle in front of me, than a full frontal labotomy". I shall never ask for neurosurgery on my R1 again, I shall feed it rum instead, sorry, nearly all out..

 

[Tom Lowe]

I'm afraid to warn you this won't work it out like that. Take a glance on this info [ LINK ] .

Even if that was true, you could still get $16K for your first R1, and $15,000 or more for each additional R1, right? If you have have to pay $1200 to get it certified, plus knock another 1G off for savings to future Epic buyers, you are still left with 15K roughly. Is that right?

 

[Mark Pugh]

This thread is too funny. Lots of wild claims on cameras that have not even been produced in any form that we know of other than a render.

What do you expect? come on -
Red openly promoted speculation (months and months ago on the Scarlet), and openly asked for feedback on the new cameras.
No big deal, people are just speculating on a camera system that they are looking forward to and feel involved with.
Plans have been published, and people are excited.
The many camera models listed means that some have difficult decisions to make, and are talking about them. Big deal.
Someone recently posted that Jim should be disgusted.
I just don't see much here that's truly disgusting, really.

The other role for a forum like this is for the manufacturer to respond to the feedback. There hasn't been much response here this week, so the chatter continues. Relax.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

5. Sell both R1s for 16K each x 2 = $32K and buy one Epic FF35.

Only need to sell one of them. $17.5K trade-in value for the one you don't sell. And that's assuming RED only allows one R1 trade per EPIC purchase, which seems logical, but they haven't said for sure.

How are you figuring 10K for a R1? Anyone wanting an Epic will buy it off you for 16K so they can save a grand. Why not.

Agreed. But then again, don't tell too many people this... I'm kinda hoping to pick up a used R1, as a back-up and rental camera, for a bit cheaper than that in the next few months.

 

[Stephen Williams]

If you have have to pay $1200 to get it certified, ?

Hi Tom,

When was it stated that you had to get a camera certified for $1200 before being able to trade it in?

I thought unless the waranty had been voided it would be accepted.

Stephen

 

[Tom Lowe]

Hi Tom,

When was it stated that you had to get a camera certified for $1200 before being able to trade it in?

I thought unless the waranty had been voided it would be accepted.

Stephen

Stephen, I was just reacting to this link from Emanuel...

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/red-digital-cinema/138020-buying-used-red-one.html

I have no idea if that information is correct or not. But even if it is, that still means you could sell an R1 for 15K to people who are interested in cashing it in for Epic. Low-serial-number R1s might even fetch a premium in the early days, if Epic's rollout is slow at all.

 

[Sidney L. Plaut]

hmmm ... wondering about people saying scarlett is limited to 30fps? isnt that just in their max resolution like r1 is 30fps according to the data sheet?

If my posts have been ugly, or seemed rude, this has ofcourse never been my intend. Im just trying to get a good healthy discussion going. 'also we seem to be the intended target group for either an Epics35 or FF35, so figuring out what they are about is important in my opinion.

Also i dont have unlimited funds to pour into this camera. I sure i was buying the RED primes, but now i am confused. looks like next year is going to be expensive too... story of my life. welcome to the entertainment biz!

But hey all said and done, if they keep their schedule I have an 5k/6k digital film camera, and i am not even 30 years old. cant wait till im 40!

Now if only apple would pull a "Jannard" and release a monster mac, to process all our RAW files without a 1:15 ratio

 

[Stephen Williams]

Stephen, I was just reacting to this link from Emanuel...

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/red-digital-cinema/138020-buying-used-red-one.html

I have no idea if that information is correct or not. But even if it is, that still means you could sell an R1 for 15K to people who are interested in cashing it in for Epic. Low-serial-number R1s might even fetch a premium in the early days, if Epic's rollout is slow at all.

Hi Tom,

If it were true then the second hand value of RED One would drop very low, how can you be sure that it will be even be accepted, very risky indeed IMHO.

I have a feeling the Epic roll out will not be slow, I believe RED will satisfy demand in a few months, however great that demand is.

Stephen

 

[Tom Lowe]

Hi Tom,

If it were true then the second hand value of RED One would drop very low, how can you be sure that it will be even be accepted, very risky indeed IMHO.

Well, you are speculating about something none of us know the answer to.

Anyway, let's wait and see what the policy is. Jim has a track record of being more than fair, wouldn't you agree?