The big choice: Epic S35 or FF35...

[Jannard]

You could always buy a Sony F35 (same sensor size as EPIC S35 but doesn't shoot 100fps) and then have no upgrade path and spend $200-300K.

What are your other FF35 options in the industry? How cheap do you want them to be?

Seems to me that we have released some industry stunning options. It is not our job to make sure every one of our customers can afford every option. It just isn't possible.

Jim

 

[NZ1]

Scarlet should be all Mysterium X & Epic should be all Monstro

Scarlet should be all Mysterium X & Epic should be all Monstro

I totally agree, Scarlet should be all Mysterium X and Epic should be all Monstro

Quite frankly, I believe the issue is much more fundamental than 5K vs. 6K, a difference which may prove to be more academic than visually tangible.

The major difference is the dynamic range. I suggest that 13+ stops of DR does indeed render the Mysterium and even the Mysterium X obsolete.

OK, please no flames for using the "O" word at RedUser. In the marketplace who would opt for 11+ stops of DR when 13+ stops of DR is available?

What difference in rental rates would there be for a full package if the only difference was one $7,000.00 more expensive item. Chicken feed. This affects owner/operators as well since our camera rates are similar to rental house rates and our clients tend to demand the best equipment.

I have a bad feeling that the S35 Epic Brains will be a very low demand item when the Monstro sensor Brains are available. That means low resale price to offset the cost of a new FF Epic.

So why not wait for the FF Epic to trade in? Because I have low confidence that it will appear just three months after the S35. As they say, things change; count on it.

I guess I'd be happier if there were no Mysterium X option for Epic, unless the actual delivery of Monstro is much longer than hoped for. It just seems to me that Scarlet should be all Mysterium X and Epic should be all Monstro.

Leo

 

[Gunleik Groven]

With Scarlet and EPIC, the way to upgrade the sensor is to upgrade the "brain". Each electronics package is "tuned" to go with each sensor. Epics have a much more complex electronics package and heat management system, hence the larger box. We expect the volume of EPICs to be much smaller in production... which adds a higher cost to manufacture factor.

Jim

So going the S-35 -->> FF35 route means replacing the whole box?

Just clearifying here...

In that case, I think I hear Leo loud and clear

 

[Sidney L. Plaut]

remember that Jim has mentioned theres a free sensor upgrade for Epic (maybe its changed, but i dont think so). that should mean Monstro for
Epic S35.

As regard to FF, I know nothing about it (still land). But can you even realistically pull focus if you shoot under low light situations? f1.4..2.8 do i dare mention tele lenses in that regard?

but we might aswell come clean- we all want an Epic,ever since we heard the name.. There goes my Audi for sure. Thanks jim.

 

[FMG battery]

I totally agree, Scarlet should be all Mysterium X and Epic should be all Monstro

it should be even (much) more protective rather than productive.. :sad:

 

[Florian Stadler]

Another thing to consider:

FF35 = lesser depth of field
= more light or more out of focus shots
Isn't FF35 meant to be for still photographers? (DSCMC)
Vistavision has existed for many years, yet it's only used for visual effects plates.

What I'm personally missing is simplicity. Simplicity with a purpose is what I was hoping for and while the new lineup at first look tries to please everybody and all, what's missing is simplicity and singular vision. I think it will come back once an actual product is released, but I'm an optimist.

 

[Roberto B]

Another thing to consider:

FF35 = lesser depth of field
= more light or more out of focus shots
Isn't FF35 meant to be for still photographers? (DSCMC)
Vistavision has existed for many years, yet it's only used for visual effects plates.

What I'm personally missing is simplicity. Simplicity with a purpose is what I was hoping for and while the new lineup at first look tries to please everybody and all, what's missing is simplicity and singular vision. I think it will come back once an actual product is released, but I'm an optimist.

agreed.. but you can always crop to a windowed gate for same S35 DOF.. add your PL glass and have better dynamic range..

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Florian, what you are missing here is the announced ability of Epic to handle virtually any format until you reach the specs of the sensor.

This means an Epic FF35 will work nicely with PL glas in a 4:3 ratio when slightly cropped plus the extended DR of 2 stops which we all know is a hugh step.

So, if those capabilies are vital for you, you will wait until the Epic FF35 is out and until then keep shooting with your old RedOne, UNLESS you are Mark or other facilities which are able to reach the ROI minus the expected loss of an used Epic S35 in the market in 6 months or so.

This will surely not work for me. I don't care actually, the RedOne is working very well for me. There are only two things i like to see:

1. DR close to film

2. Lighter and more ergonomic formfactor

Hence Epic FF35 is the cam I'm after.

Hans

 

[david farland]

Jim,
I'm saying I think there's a flaw in the upgrade path as you're virtually telling me as a RedOne owner to sit out on a S35 upgrade (28K) and wait for the FF35($35K-17K) solution.
Buying into the Epic market for an extra 1 stop for six months and hoping to sell it come Epic FF35 time isn't presenting me with a smart business option particularly when you're providing a RedOne sensor upgrade.

I'm confused!!
D

 

[FMG battery]

don't be.. you forgot to add.. red is here for making money.. it's not a charity.. loooooooool

 

[Pawel Achtel]

With Scarlet and EPIC, the way to upgrade the sensor is to upgrade the "brain". Each electronics package is "tuned" to go with each sensor. Epics have a much more complex electronics package and heat management system, hence the larger box. We expect the volume of EPICs to be much smaller in production... which adds a higher cost to manufacture factor.

Jim

I take one needs more than just a "brain" to shoot and record 100fps with Epic. How much will the other modules cost?

What are high speed recording options for Epic and how much are they?

 

[Ramesh Jai]

It would have been a no brainer for me if the Epic S35 had the DR of the FF35. Can't we have that Jim?

 

[david farland]

. red is here for making money..

No they're not...!!
They're a bunch of smart fellas selling excellent ideas/designs at a good price....thru a smart marketing strategy.
I'm simply pointing out an area of that strategy I feel is a bit weak.
D

 

[Deanan]

I take one needs more than just a "brain" to shoot and record 100fps with Epic. How much will the other modules cost?

What are high speed recording options for Epic and how much are they?

Pricing for flash media is hard to predict that far in advance. Since you aren't actually buying the cameras today, it really makes sense to look at the details closer to when the cameras are shipping.

 

[Evin Grant]

I think a can of worms may have been opened here. We know delivery dates change, "Count on it" so the real question is how long is that likely to be? They've had both success and failure here so it really comes down to the difference in delivery between the S35 and FF 35 Epics. We all know that a certain number of us can probably make the investment in the S35 version work it's self off by the time the FF ships, but would still prefer to just buy the FF first. The reason is simple, there isn't anything the S35 Epic can do that the FF can't and better and the $7000 price difference is negligible to most considering the upgrade. If the wait is truly a few months then the FF is the clear winner. If it's 6 then you may be able to make your money back in time to get a FF but your trade in is used up and the 2nd hand market for your S35 Epic is saturated by guys trying to do the same thing. It may still be worth it but it's a gamble.

The more conservative option would be to just shoot your R1 till the FF is available.
That's also a gamble but at least you're still shooting and your Epic is the one you'll stick with.

If I had my way financially I'd get the 645 Epic. But who knows what the future holds :greedy:

 

[David Mullen ASC]

So it seems that if you want to use PL glass on the Epic 6K FF35 camera, you'd basically be cropping down to S35, from 36mm wide to 24mm wide, so 6K essentially becomes 4K.

Which is OK I guess considering the other advantages of the Monstro sensor (16-bit, more dynamic range) but otherwise, I'd prefer that the 6K sensor was S35 in size because then I can use PL glass for a 6K image.

I don't relish using still camera lenses for movie production, not to mention that with the effective 1.5 stops shallower depth of field with an FF35 sensor, you're talking about a 6K image when shot at f/2.8 being more like shooting S35 at a f/1.4-2.0 split in terms of effective depth of field -- so less depth of field, more critical focus and extra sharpness combined with using still camera lenses not designed for cinema-style focus-pulling. Sounds like a challenge. Doable, but not preferable. Which is why I wish there would be an Epic with a 6K Monstro sensor that was S35 in size. Then I could shoot 6K RAW and get a better 4K RGB image while using the best PL glass I could find.

 

[Evin Grant]

You still up david?

My calculation (Not Red's!) puts an S35 crop of the FF Monstro at 4.75K, so better than the R1 and pretty close to a measurable 4K (3.7). I don't see there really being a huge difference in useable resolution between that and 6K for a 4K finish. The real advantage of the FF sensor besides the DR is full aperture anamorphic! Now that should get you close to your 6K measurable figure no?

 

[Pawel Achtel]

So it seems that if you want to use PL glass on the Epic 6K FF35 camera, you'd basically be cropping down to S35, from 36mm wide to 24mm wide, so 6K essentially becomes 4K.

Which is OK I guess considering the other advantages of the Monstro sensor (16-bit, more dynamic range) but otherwise, I'd prefer that the 6K sensor was S35 in size because then I can use PL glass for a 6K image.

I don't relish using still camera lenses for movie production, not to mention that with the effective 1.5 stops shallower depth of field with an FF35 sensor, you're talking about a 6K image when shot at f/2.8 being more like shooting S35 at a f/1.4-2.0 split in terms of effective depth of field -- so less depth of field, more critical focus and extra sharpness combined with using still camera lenses not designed for cinema-style focus-pulling. Sounds like a challenge. Doable, but not preferable. Which is why I wish there would be an Epic with a 6K Monstro sensor that was S35 in size. Then I could shoot 6K RAW and get a better 4K RGB image while using the best PL glass I could find.

David, 16mm MP will cover 30mm wide frame at 5k in Scope (1:2.40), longer Master Primes will cover full FF35 at 6k.

There may be other PL lenses that will cover full FF35.

 

[Emanuel A.]

You still up david?

My calculation (Not Red's!) puts an S35 crop of the FF Monstro at 4.75K, so better than the R1 and pretty close to a measurable 4K (3.7). I don't see there really being a huge difference in useable resolution between that and 6K for a 4K finish. The real advantage of the FF sensor besides the DR is full aperture anamorphic! Now that should get you close to your 6K measurable figure no?

Well... Roughly, 24mm is 2/3 of 36mm, as well, 4K is 2/3 of 6K. What's the basis of your measures, Evin?

Apart the DR, on the 2:1 anamorphic coverage in full mode, I agree with you. It will push anyone above the 4K line.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

Yes, I can see the advantage of the FF35 sensor for anamorphic lenses, since the sensor is 24mm tall -- closer to the 18mm height of the 4-perf 35mm frame used by anamorphic, rather than the 13mm height of the RED ONE sensor.

Yes, I'm up late -- I just got back from work tonight... now it's 4AM in the morning, time to go to bed. We call it a "Fraturday" shoot on the set, when you work so long on a Friday that you wrap on Saturday morning, cutting into your weekend off time.