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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

The big choice: Epic S35 or FF35...

Quite frankly, I believe the issue is much more fundamental than 5K vs. 6K, a difference which may prove to be more academic than visually tangible.

The major difference is the dynamic range. I suggest that 13+ stops of DR does indeed render the Mysterium and even the Mysterium X obsolete.

OK, please no flames for using the "O" word at RedUser. In the marketplace who would opt for 11+ stops of DR when 13+ stops of DR is available?

What difference in rental rates would there be for a full package if the only difference was one $7,000.00 more expensive item. Chicken feed. This affects owner/operators as well since our camera rates are similar to rental house rates and our clients tend to demand the best equipment.

I have a bad feeling that the S35 Epic Brains will be a very low demand item when the Monstro sensor Brains are available. That means low resale price to offset the cost of a new FF Epic.

So why not wait for the FF Epic to trade in? Because I have low confidence that it will appear just three months after the S35. As they say, things change; count on it.

I guess I'd be happier if there were no Mysterium X option for Epic, unless the actual delivery of Monstro is much longer than hoped for. It just seems to me that Scarlet should be all Mysterium X and Epic should be all Monstro.

I'll continue to wrestle with this dilemma for several months, all the while enjoying the hell out of my Red One, until we learn more.

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo
 
Leo Ticheli said:
Quite frankly, I believe the issue is much more fundamental than 5K vs. 6K, a difference which may prove to be more academic than visually tangible.

The major difference is the dynamic range. I suggest that 13+ stops of DR does indeed render the Mysterium and even the Mysterium X obsolete.

Leo
Click to expand...


For PL shooting, one could make the analogy that S35 is to 3 perf as FF35 is to 4 perf.
 
Leo Ticheli said:
In the marketplace who would opt for 11+ stops of DR when 13+ stops of DR is available?

Leo
Click to expand...

Currently people are opting for 10 stops (i.e. RED) when they could be getting 15 (i.e. film).

That is why we will pay more for Monstro...and thus charge a higher rental.
 
I agree with Leo.

I would much rather that the S35 version dump the 5.6 micron 5k chip for a 6 micron 13+ stop chip. (I don't care about the spatial rez loss)

I'm struggling to imagine many people (unless a specific job forces the upgrade) not waiting for the FF35. Even if they only ever use it with a PL mount and a S35 centre cut. I will only 'not' wait to upgrade both our Reds if I suspect the extra wait is much more than 3months.

I remember when the uncompressed option got dropped because nobody put thier money down. Maybe the same will happen with S35?

Michael
 
I would wait for the FF35 leo...cause as you mentioned, eventually you will want to upgrade and thats 28k for new brain so if we are really just talking months apart here then bite the bullet now, much less a blow then later.

For me FF35 is a logical choice cause I like (and am spoiled) with all the options R1 has given, everyone is a different kind of shooter and the more versatile, and more options my camera has then the more pleased I can make myself and those I work with. Monstro is being pushed for 09 according to RED and I want to think they can do it...in the meantime, we have R1 to keep us busy and save bank for FF35. Happy shooting.
 
I agree with your reasoning in preferring the ff35, Leo. I just don't understand why you'd buy the s35 version with the intention of buying the ff35 version down the line.

Contrary to some, I do think the s35 version will work for a lot of people. You're happy with your R1 images right now, right? That s35 camera is going to be higher res, PL-mount formatted, have better dynamic range, way more fps, and only cost $10,000 (with trade-in) when it drops. That's an awfully tempting offer for a lot of people, and $7,000 isn't something to scoff at... at least to me.

Yes, the ff35 version will likely have the superior chip. And if you can afford it, that's the one to get - especially since you can still use it with your PL lenses (albeit cropped). But this whole upgrade nonsense between the s35 and ff35 is just silly to me. Use your RED one until the ff35 debuts and be done with it. You wouldn't buy a 2008 model car knowing that the 2009 model is coming and demand some sort of upgrade path. You either sell it at a loss and buy the new one or you wait like a civilized human being and get the 2009 model when it's ready. Does that not seem like the reasonable and logical way to look at this? :-)
 
Häakon said:
I agree with your reasoning in preferring the ff35, Leo. I just don't understand why you'd buy the s35 version with the intention of buying the ff35 version down the line.

Contrary to some, I do think the s35 version will work for a lot of people. You're happy with your R1 images right now, right? That s35 camera is going to be higher res, PL-mount formatted, have better dynamic range, way more fps, and only cost $10,000 (with trade-in) when it drops. That's an awfully tempting offer for a lot of people, and $7,000 isn't something to scoff at... at least to me.

Yes, the ff35 version will likely have the superior chip. And if you can afford it, that's the one to get - especially since you can still use it with your PL lenses (albeit cropped). But this whole upgrade nonsense between the s35 and ff35 is just silly to me.
Click to expand...

It would be silly if we were talking about Sony or Panasonic, but Red has a history of talking about sensor upgrades so I don't see how it's out of line to bring it up for discussion. I think it would be out of line to demand it or even expect it. But to inquire about it? I don't really think so.
 
adaml said:
It would be silly if we were talking about Sony or Panasonic, but Red has a history of talking about sensor upgrades so I don't see how it's out of line to bring it up for discussion. I think it would be out of line to demand it or even expect it. But to inquire about it? I don't really think so.
Click to expand...
Oh, absolutely. I just think they've already addressed it. The top of their new Epic/Scarlet release says this:

"As Mysterium technology advances, both Scarlet and Epic can be upgraded simply by purchasing a new "brain." Not a whole new camera."

Seems pretty clear to me.
 
Häakon said:
Oh, absolutely. I just think they've already addressed it. The top of their new Epic/Scarlet release says this:

"As Mysterium technology advances, both Scarlet and Epic can be upgraded simply by purchasing a new "brain." Not a whole new camera."

Seems pretty clear to me.
Click to expand...

Could be, but it's a new approach and some of us are stuck in the past.
 
Waiting longer for FF35 also means more free time with R1 . It's very generous of Jim to let us wait and choose which Epic to trade in for (beyond the original generosity of offering the full trade-in). People just want to know what all their options are, I think, and we're all trying to sort through all the new information.
 
Fair enough. And I agree that some are stuck in the past. :-) Change can be difficult to swallow sometimes, but I think the big picture that RED is presenting here is awfully impressive. Maybe they will offer some sort of swap-out option, who knows. I just think that if you're set on buying the FF35, there isn't much point in buying the S35 and trying to figure out how you're going to get rid of it in a few months, whether that be an upgrade from jim, selling it on craigslist, or using it as a doorstop. But that's just my opinion.
 
Häakon said:
Oh, absolutely. I just think they've already addressed it. The top of their new Epic/Scarlet release says this:

"As Mysterium technology advances, both Scarlet and Epic can be upgraded simply by purchasing a new "brain." Not a whole new camera."

Seems pretty clear to me.
Click to expand...

Looking at the brochure again, and at the description of the "sensor/electronics modules", I'm inclined to agree with you. It does seem pretty clear.

So much new info to take in...
 
No problem at all... this, I believe, is where a discussion board forum can prove to be both very helpful and effective. :-) Your posts were very respectful and mature... and sometimes it's good just to talk this stuff out.

That being said, I have no doubts that things will change several times over before these cameras get around to shipping - so I'm assuming nothing! :P
 
Häakon said:
To that, I'd say it's a bit silly to be investing $28,000 in a 5K camera if 6K is what you really want. I think you can wait the 3 months or whatever it takes for the FF version to come out if that's the camera you need - and then you're only paying the additional $7,000.

Also, you would then be able to sell your original "brain" to another interested party - the $28,000 wouldn't be a loss. Their product offering line makes complete sense to me.
Click to expand...

True... unless you look at the cost of selling the S35 brain used. There by working with the camera for a few months while waiting on the FF35.
 
Häakon said:
Oh, absolutely. I just think they've already addressed it. The top of their new Epic/Scarlet release says this:

"As Mysterium technology advances, both Scarlet and Epic can be upgraded simply by purchasing a new "brain." Not a whole new camera."

Seems pretty clear to me.
Click to expand...

It isn't pretty clear to me yet. But I am due for an eye exam soon.

In the brochure, they also say: "Instead you can upgrade individual modules, and..."

I read that as being different than: you can upgrade to another module. (although you can do that as well)

And under the Sensor/Module listing, they mention: five sizes.

To me this implies that that S35 module you bought can be upgraded with the new Monstro, and a couple years down the road, the new Whatever sensor. All within the S35 size of course.

If you want to move to a different size, yes, you will have to buy that new size outright. And like your previous size, this new size is also upgradeable.

Who knows? This is just how I read it. We will know more soon enough.
 
With Scarlet and EPIC, the way to upgrade the sensor is to upgrade the "brain". Each electronics package is "tuned" to go with each sensor. Epics have a much more complex electronics package and heat management system, hence the larger box. We expect the volume of EPICs to be much smaller in production... which adds a higher cost to manufacture factor.

Jim
 
Jim,
What do I do with the old Epic S35 sensor?

The FF35 ($35K) comes out 6 months after the S35 body/sensor.
Do I pay another $35K for the FF35 six months after and sell the S35 on eBay?

D
 
I'd hang on there son. I suspect we haven't heard all from the big fella yet.
I'd be surprised if it's that simple, so that he'd let an upgrade step/opportunity slip by.
D
 
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